Laley23
Posts: 29,506
Jul 3, 2014 1:03pm
And people use them all the time. We see this shit on all the highlight graphics for NBA, NFL and especially MLB where it is most prevelant because it has been around the longest. NBA GMs (I forget what show I was listening too) are negotiating down based on the stuff LHS is using for the free agents and the agents of players are using it to negotiate up when applicable. EVERYONE is using advanced metrics. Just because we didnt before (because...well, people didnt really know about them or have a good formula for them) doesnt make them any less valuable today. And they are much, MUCH more valuable today then basic stats.
lhslep134
Posts: 9,774
Jul 3, 2014 1:03pm
Because most people are like you and they 1) don't know what the stat means; 2) don't know how to apply it; and 3) doesn't help you understand.robj55;1632677 wrote:You didn't answer my question, then why aren't advanced stats use when comparing players on a common basis?
Knowledgeable fans use advanced metrics all the time because only other knowledgeable fans understand them.
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:05pm
It rewards people who take bad shots and threes and penalizes those who don't take them, that's what it does.lhslep134;1632675 wrote:HOW THE ACTUAL F*CK DOES IT NOT??? You're now arguing against an obvious fact, a staple of FW. Congrats
True shooting percentage does a BETTER JOB of detailing what factually happened.
Since you're advanced metric retarded, this conversation is over. Enjoy simmering in your primordial soup of basketball analysis.
lhslep134
Posts: 9,774
Jul 3, 2014 1:05pm
Thank you and reps.Laley23;1632679 wrote:And people use them all the time. We see this shit on all the highlight graphics for NBA, NFL and especially MLB where it is most prevelant because it has been around the longest. NBA GMs (I forget what show I was listening too) are negotiating down based on the stuff LHS is using for the free agents and the agents of players are using it to negotiate up when applicable. EVERYONE is using advanced metrics. Just because we didnt before (because...well, people didnt really know about them or have a good formula for them) doesnt make them any less valuable today. And they are much, MUCH more valuable today then basic stats.
Laley23
Posts: 29,506
Jul 3, 2014 1:07pm
The Heat were on all the time. I saw plenty of games. LeBron was the guy and Wade and Bosh fed off him. The difference, when Bosh got the ball and had to create, he could still use his quickness and athleticism to do so. Wade really struggled with it. He struggled making those quick, reactive, athletic plays on O and D. Its why his Win Shares went almost in half, despite having a better year (according to your stats) then last year.robj55;1632678 wrote:No he looked that way in the finals, he didn't look that way the rest of the season. If you didn't know who it was and I told you player A averaged 19 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg on 55% shooting as a TWO guard while only taking 14 shots per game and playing just over 32 mpg you would say that player is fantastic. There has been am overreaction since the finals performance, just like Pat Riley said.
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:07pm
Perhaps they are just too new and that is why, but I never see them used really and none of my friends who are hoopers whose opinions I respect greatly use them either. You never see them used when discussing and comparing all time greats either. I'm not saying LHS is wrong, just that I would never base my argument off of that, perhaps we see them used more in the future.Laley23;1632679 wrote:And people use them all the time. We see this shit on all the highlight graphics for NBA, NFL and especially MLB where it is most prevelant because it has been around the longest. NBA GMs (I forget what show I was listening too) are negotiating down based on the stuff LHS is using for the free agents and the agents of players are using it to negotiate up when applicable. EVERYONE is using advanced metrics. Just because we didnt before (because...well, people didnt really know about them or have a good formula for them) doesnt make them any less valuable today. And they are much, MUCH more valuable today then basic stats.
Rotinaj
Posts: 7,699
Jul 3, 2014 1:10pm
This argument is the worst and you bring it up daily.robj55;1632662 wrote:Once again you spin it because you were wrong. Carry on. I can tell about 2 people on here ever even touched a basketball in their lives. Referring to those metrics as your main argument means nothing to me in the end. Just a way for you to skew an argument in your favor. The facts are that Wade averaged 19, 5 and 5 on 55% shooting, that's what happened.
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:11pm
If he struggled then how did he shoot 55% from the field? Like I said he was still able to get the shots he wanted and make them, if he had shot in the low 40's I would agree with all of you no problem. Again, he shot 8 percentage points higher than Kobe Bryant EVER has in a season.Laley23;1632683 wrote:The Heat were on all the time. I saw plenty of games. LeBron was the guy and Wade and Bosh fed off him. The difference, when Bosh got the ball and had to create, he could still use his quickness and athleticism to do so. Wade really struggled with it. He struggled making those quick, reactive, athletic plays on O and D. Its why his Win Shares went almost in half, despite having a better year (according to your stats) then last year.
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:11pm
Well based on what is spewed out around here am I lying?Rotinaj;1632686 wrote:This argument is the worst and you bring it up daily.
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:13pm
lhslep134;1632680 wrote:Because most people are like you and they 1) don't know what the stat means; 2) don't know how to apply it; and 3) doesn't help you understand.
Knowledgeable fans use advanced metrics all the time because only other knowledgeable fans understand them.
haha oh now you have to revert to slandering me? Knowledgeable fans do not use advanced metrics all the time, they use them when they wanna sound like the smartest guy in the room and thump their chest like they invented them or something. Perhaps in the future they will become more common place when comparing players and greats but up until this point they haven't been. I grew up in an era where they were never used, perhaps I will change with the times as well.
Laley23
Posts: 29,506
Jul 3, 2014 1:15pm
Would anyone be able to tell you it was "just unlucky" that CJ Wilson sucked for 2 years in the postseason based on the fact that its just a small sample size and a bad outing skews it...OF COURSE.
Then advanced metrics shows WHY he got his ass handed to him.
We are getting to this point in other sports as well...
Then advanced metrics shows WHY he got his ass handed to him.
We are getting to this point in other sports as well...
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:21pm
Yeah baseball has always been ahead of the game when it comes to that. I'm sure they are used in NBA manners as well when contract discussions come up as well. Just not to the point yet where we base everything off of them as a main argumentative tool. Again not saying LHS is wrong, he obviously knows these very well. But anyone can find any stats with google.Laley23;1632693 wrote:Would anyone be able to tell you it was "just unlucky" that CJ Wilson sucked for 2 years in the postseason based on the fact that its just a small sample size and a bad outing skews it...OF COURSE.
Then advanced metrics shows WHY he got his ass handed to him.
We are getting to this point in other sports as well...
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jul 3, 2014 1:22pm
You are the one trying to argue that Wade is a top 25 player. LOLrobj55;1632688 wrote:Well based on what is spewed out around here am I lying?
I wouldn't want Wade on my weekly pickup game team much less my NBA team.
Laley23
Posts: 29,506
Jul 3, 2014 1:23pm
Because over 50% of his shots were lay-ups and 75% were inside of 15 feet.robj55;1632687 wrote:If he struggled then how did he shoot 55% from the field? Like I said he was still able to get the shots he wanted and make them, if he had shot in the low 40's I would agree with all of you no problem. Again, he shot 8 percentage points higher than Kobe Bryant EVER has in a season.
lhslep134
Posts: 9,774
Jul 3, 2014 1:23pm
This is an admittance of the fact that you're limiting your understanding of the game by giving credence to archaic stats over advanced stats.robj55;1632684 wrote: just that I would never base my argument off of that
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:24pm
Yes and you can't name me close to 25 better so your argument means nothing.sleeper;1632697 wrote:You are the one trying to argue that Wade is a top 25 player. LOL
I wouldn't want Wade on my weekly pickup game team much less my NBA team.
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:26pm
They are archaic stats but they are also what actually happened. Like I said tsp benefits those who take three pointers and bad shots and penalizes those who don't.lhslep134;1632699 wrote:This is an admittance of the fact that you're limiting your understanding of the game by giving credence to archaic stats over advanced stats.
lhslep134
Posts: 9,774
Jul 3, 2014 1:27pm
Yes, they do. COA, like_that, Laley, and others on here, along with myself, have been using them for the past 2 years on here.robj55;1632690 wrote:haha oh now you have to revert to slandering me? Knowledgeable fans do not use advanced metrics all the time.
I'm not slandering you, if you refuse to acknowledge the value of advanced metrics relative to archaic ones, you're NOT knowledgeable because you're missing out on a good chunk of the story.
Heretic
Posts: 18,820
Jul 3, 2014 1:27pm
And were mainly (Jordan for probably his entire career and Kobe for all but his first few years) the primary option on their team. Wade is on the same team with the game's best player and, therefore (especially looking at his shot chart) had an easier time of getting the shots he wanted.lhslep134;1632654 wrote:And they also shot 3's.
lhslep134
Posts: 9,774
Jul 3, 2014 1:29pm
So someone more effective at making 3's and less effective at making 2's, while still overall having a higher TS%, is somehow detrimental to the team? And you're claiming to be knowledgeable????robj55;1632703 wrote:Like I said tsp benefits those who take three pointers and bad shots and penalizes those who don't.
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:30pm
Yes you did slander me, you called me an idiot. I haven't seen much use of those stats on here when it comes to basketball and I have been on here for years. They are never used in casual conversation either, we just aren't to that point yet. You never hear people talking about, "did you see what Wade's true shooting percentage is"? No, they say, "did you see Wade shot 55% from the field last year"? I'm not saying I wouldn't use them either, just saying I wouldn't base my whole argument around them, they are to be use as another tool for evaluation, not exclusively.lhslep134;1632704 wrote:Yes, they do. COA, like_that, Laley, and others on here, along with myself, have been using them for the past 2 years on here.
I'm not slandering you, if you refuse to acknowledge the value of advanced metrics relative to archaic ones, you're NOT knowledgeable because you're missing out on a good chunk of the story.
Rotinaj
Posts: 7,699
Jul 3, 2014 1:31pm
Dwades minutes are going to keep going down and down and I highly doubt he will ever play more than 65ish regular season games again. You are insane if you don't think there are at least 25 players in the league that a team would rather have.robj55;1632701 wrote:Yes and you can't name me close to 25 better so your argument means nothing.
robj55
Posts: 9,511
Jul 3, 2014 1:32pm
Who in the league is more effective at making 3's than 2's? How does that make sense in any way? 3's are the lowest percentage shot in the game.lhslep134;1632706 wrote:So someone more effective at making 3's and less effective at making 2's, while still overall having a higher TS%, is somehow detrimental to the team? And you're claiming to be knowledgeable????
lhslep134
Posts: 9,774
Jul 3, 2014 1:32pm
My favorite part of the list of those 66 players with a season more valuable than Wade's was that 7 of them came before the advent of the 3 point line, shitting on Rob's argument.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jul 3, 2014 1:33pm
1. Lebronrobj55;1632701 wrote:Yes and you can't name me close to 25 better so your argument means nothing.
2. Durant
3. George
4. CP3
5. Love
6. Curry
7. Anthony
8. Griffin
9. Harden
10. Howard
11. Davis
12. Wall
13. Lilliard
14. Aldridge
15. Irving
16. Derozan
17. Duncan
18. Parker
19. Cousins
20. Ibaka
21. Bosh
22. Noah
23. Nowitzi
24. Hibbert
25. Dragic
26. Ginobli
27. Rondo
28. Deng
29. Lopez
30. Holiday
31. Westbrook
32. Randolph
33. Lee
34. M. Gasol
35. P. Gasol
36. Kobe
37. Carter Williams
38. D. Jordan
39. A. Jefferson
40. Rudy Gay
There's 40. Do I need to keep going? I could name 150 players better than fucking Wade. He's garbage and he's the reason the Heat will never win another championship.