Good luck with that.

So who created the universe that god is from?

Rotinaj;1607804 wrote:So who created the universe that god is from?

This. Funny that people think there has to be a beginning on earth, but not outside of it. You either believe in beginnings and ends or you don't. You can't pick and choose where to apply it.

They are arguing causality....and God as being the uncaused cause. Sleepers argument that something can arise from nothing is an impossibility in this universe. Cruiser argues that this universe did not arise from nothing but that it was created by something. that could only be true if that 'something' was not of this universe.

When you eliminate the impossible,what remains, no matter how improbable, is the truth.

HitsRus;1607808 wrote:They are arguing causality....and God as being the uncaused cause. Sleepers argument that something can arise from nothing is an impossibility in this universe. Cruiser argues that this universe did not arise from nothing but that it was created by something. that could only be true if that 'something' was not of this universe.

When you eliminate the impossible,what remains, no matter how improbable, is the truth.

So god magically appeared out of nothing? Or from another universe?

I personally thought God was from Cleveland

dlazz;1607820 wrote:I personally thought God was from Cleveland

No, You are confusing God with Bernie Kosar. Before that it was Jim Brown. Apparently God only works in sporadic, scoring shifts up there.


Weeden was obviously a false profit or the anti christ,


Apparently, they are waiting for the third coming in Johnny football.

HitsRus;1607723 wrote:Not convienient. Necessary and True. Everything in this universe has a cause...something cannot come from nothing.....right back to the spark of the Big Bang....(or if the Big bang was not actually the beginning whatever eventuallly is considered the beginning.)

Therefore, whatever caused the beginning of the our universe is outside our universe.

It's certainly an argument that I've heard before and I do think its something worth thinking about; however, even IF, and that's one big ass motherfucking IF this is valid, it still has nothing to do with worldly religions and certainly DOES NOT validate any religious belief system. I personally think its full of shit, if god has special rules, then the creation of the universe has special rules. You cannot just arbitrarily give one entity a free pass and then expect the 'other side' to come up with scientific evidence.

HitsRus;1607808 wrote:Sleepers argument that something can arise from nothing is an impossibility in this universe.

Given current evidence yes, I agree with this. However, again, you cannot just say god can come from nothing because it fits your worldview; he isn't special.

sleeper;1607905 wrote:It's certainly an argument that I've heard before and I do think its something worth thinking about; however, even IF, and that's one big ass motherfucking IF this is valid, it still has nothing to do with worldly religions and certainly DOES NOT validate any religious belief system. I personally think its full of shit, if god has special rules, then the creation of the universe has special rules. You cannot just arbitrarily give one entity a free pass and then expect the 'other side' to come up with scientific evidence.

Considering most religions have had some sort of world-building reasoning built into their structure, I'm not sure how any of that is in any way an endorsement of Christianity, either. A lot of them have some variation of a great flood, a lot of them have titans or gods creating things, a lot of them have some variation of an afterlife.

Which makes it all the more amusing when people (who'd likely refer to those religions as "pagan" or "mythology") are so adamant that another one is reality.

It's certainly an argument that I've heard before and I do think its something worth thinking about; however, even IF, and that's one big ass motherfucking IF this is valid, it still has nothing to do with worldly religions and certainly DOES NOT validate any religious belief system. I personally think its full of shit, if god has special rules, then the creation of the universe has special rules. You cannot just arbitrarily give one entity a free pass and then expect the 'other side' to come up with scientific evidence.

However, again, you cannot just say god can come from nothing because it fits your worldview; he isn't special.

I have never attempted to validate any religious system on this thread. I have stated several times that religion is a vehicle thru which one may find their spirituality.

That someone thinks that in their infinite wisdom that their religion is the only way, please realize that this has no bearing on whether there is a creative consciousness in the universe. Likewise, whether a metaphorical story can be shown to not be 100% true, erroneous statements by men, pedophile priests etc etc etc.... none of that has any bearing on whether "God" exists. Have people misapplied religion...yes. Have people used religion to do bad things...yes. Have people used religion to make money...yes. It still does not disprove God. Moreover, you cannot use these specific examples to generalize that all religion is 'bad', because numerous examples of 'good' can be evidenced also.
All arguments about God's existence are necessarily inductive. Neither side of the argument can expect the other to deductively prove their position. It is not possible.


And God would operate by a different set of rules and would be special....he'd have to be.

HitsRus;1607952 wrote:I have never attempted to validate any religious system on this thread. I have stated several times that religion is a vehicle thru which one may find their spirituality.

That someone thinks that in their infinite wisdom that their religion is the only way, please realize that this has no bearing on whether there is a creative consciousness in the universe. Likewise, whether a metaphorical story can be shown to not be 100% true, erroneous statements by men, pedophile priests etc etc etc.... none of that has any bearing on whether "God" exists. Have people misapplied religion...yes. Have people used religion to do bad things...yes. Have people used religion to make money...yes. It still does not disprove God. Moreover, you cannot use these specific examples to generalize that all religion is 'bad', because numerous examples of 'good' can be evidenced also.
All arguments about God's existence are necessarily inductive. Neither side of the argument can expect the other to deductively prove their position. It is not possible.


And God would operate by a different set of rules and would be special....he'd have to be.

You need to define god. If you are implying that god summarizes all the unknowns in the universe and is a way to conceptualize that unknown I could deal with that reality since we currently DO NOT KNOW how the universe was created. If by god you mean an all knowing powerful force that dictates life as we know it and the after life, please seek professional medical help.

God is "special". Grow up.

If by god you mean an all knowing powerful force that dictates life as we know it and the after life, please seek professional medical help.

God is "special". Grow up.

I defined 'God' already. Please reread what I posted.

Look, the reality is there is only one truth on how everything was created; either we came into existence by some unnatural force(god, spaghetti monster, etc.) or the universe has always been here. Currently, the belief in god has zero evidence, will always have zero evidence, and their reality is based purely on an unproven faith model. They have no interest in truth, only an interest in spreading their ignorance for money and influence from the masses, including rationalizing such things as "can't have nothing from something, except god, he can come from nothing". The other side of the coin is at least trying, through the process of science to figure out what actually happened. They may never find the answer and that's okay, but I'm confident that we will have a solid answer on how everything got here and it won't be as lazy as 'god did it because god'.

HitsRus;1607957 wrote:I defined 'God' already. Please reread what I posted.

lol? Nowhere in your post do you define god. You can't answer my simple either or?

Heretic;1607909 wrote:Considering most religions have had some sort of world-building reasoning built into their structure, I'm not sure how any of that is in any way an endorsement of Christianity, either. A lot of them have some variation of a great flood, a lot of them have titans or gods creating things, a lot of them have some variation of an afterlife.

Which makes it all the more amusing when people (who'd likely refer to those religions as "pagan" or "mythology") are so adamant that another one is reality.

I stated earlier in this thread is the way one to know if your religion is made up is to make a list of why you don't believe in other religions and then use that logic and apply it to your own belief system.

For example, in Scientology, it is believed that Xenu brought humans to Earth on spaceships and detonated hydrogen bombs in volcanoes which created Thetans in all human life. Of course it sounds ridiculous until you look at stories in the bible regarding a talking snake, a woman from a man's bone and not just at the snap of god's finger, and a forbidden fruit that doomed humanity for all time with original sin. Both are ridiculous but the delusional believer in each will boast their own and call out the other; the reality is they are both made up and anyone who believes in either has no intellectual integrity.

sleeper;1607959 wrote:lol? Nowhere in your post do you define god. You can't answer my simple either or?

That someone thinks that in their infinite wisdom that their religion is the only way, please realize that this has no bearing on whether there is a creative consciousness in the universe.

Defined.


As for answering your "either/or" LOL.

As the universe has been shown to have a definite beginning, it has not "always been here".

Currently, sleeper's belief has zero evidence, will always have zero evidence, and their reality is based purely on an unproven faith model that science can explain everything.

FIFY
The argument for an atheistic universe cannot be proved deductively and the inductive argument is based soley on discrediting evidence provided by the other side, for to acknowledge even a shred would be fatal to their position. Even Sleeper's hero, Steven Hawking, acknowledged on the Larry king show, that even if science can fully explain the workings of the universe, "God may still exist". Despite the fact that he doesn't "believe" in God, Hawking acknowledges the untenable logical position of disproving God.

Except that's not how things work. Just because you cannot disprove does not mean it exists. Hawking of course cannot say there is no god because even if we fully discover how the universe started and how humans got here, you'll still have delusional believers saying god created the rules that allowed that to happen or whatever. The reality is you will never prove god; which is how the world works and how evidence works so you currently have to reject that hypothesis.

And you can say the universe came from the same area that god came from; nice try.

The reality is you will never disprove god; which is how the world works and how evidence works so you currently have to reject that hypothesis

FIFY...again.

The existence of God is not knowable by humans.
Which is why science and religion can coexist. Which is why all your blather and your gross generalizations against all believers is bullshit.

HitsRus;1608196 wrote:FIFY...again.

The existence of God is not knowable by humans.
Which is why science and religion can coexist. Which is why all your blather and your gross generalizations against all believers is bullshit.

Believers are delusional. This is the reality.

I just wish those who believe in a religious god would admit that they were indoctrinated into their belief system by their parents and they've never seriously contemplated that they could be wrong or that there is no god. The logical circumvention and rationalization by believers is simply incredible and its unlike anything else on the planet.

The problem with this thread is none of the believers who claim to believe in a Creator based upon some form of Cosmological Argument don't just believe in some form of generic creator or generic Deism or philosopher's Omni-God.

No, most of them believe in some form of Christianity.

Even if we were to accept that a belief in a creator is justified because of some appeal to ignorance about why there is something rather than nothing, the truth of that premise in no way gets us anywhere close toward the major tenets of Christianity or any other ancient mythology actually being true.

Most people were raised believing in the same God as their parents and then they meet an atheist who says that is bullshit and in response, they rationalize after the fact that "Well, there must be a cause of the Universe...we'll call that cause God." And then, they just go on with their life thinking that their made up mythology is the manifestation of that God.

Even if we accept the existence of a creator...there is no good reason to worship this creator, pray to this creator, pretend that the creator intervenes in the natural world or that any of the myths propagated by ignorant humans centuries ago in any way reflect the true nature of that creator.

Even if belief in a creator were justified (a dubious proposition at best), it absolutely in no way suggests that we have any justified belief about the nature of that creator, any potential afterlife and so on and so forth.

In other words...Christians can go ahead and deviate all they want about how there must be a creator/designer but that in no way justifies that there was a zombie who magically saves humans from eternal torture so long as the cognitive state of "belief" in the resurrection attaches to their cerebral cortex.

It's funny, I got dragged to an Easter service and the Pastor quoted The Apostle Paul talking about how "if the Resurrection didn't happen Christians were wasting their time and that their lives and beliefs were meaningless." I just smh and try to take comfort in the fact that all of those people are just trying to find meaning on this rock.