Does music actually get worse?

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Mohican00's avatar

Mohican00

Dirty White Boy

3,394 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:21 PM
Popular music is, by definition, appealing to a broad range of people.
but one direction is popular music yet it appeals to preteen/teenage girls. I don't consider that a broad range
Truly good music tends to transcend genres and personal preferences - most people know good music when they hear it, even if it isn't their favorite thing
That completely removes personal subjectivity from the equation and makes assumptions which dilutes the reality.

This argument isn't new - popular music is popular because it is inherently good and people across all swaths are going to like it and that justifies the music being considered good. And like I said, that eliminates personal interpretation, makes broad generalizations and simplifies the issue. Just because something is pleasing to a lot of people does not mean that it is good. That ignores originality and construction which leads to stale, run of the mill top 40 hits......which is a problem with your popular music.

As for the hipster, you've never heard of this band elitism....yeah that exists, it's pretty easy to spot (i.e. people who like Merzbow and Trout Mask Replica), but who are you to say that fringe, unpopular acts can't be enjoyed by people? That's kind of elitist in itself
Dec 15, 2013 10:21pm
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

Senior Member

7,809 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:28 PM
Mohican00;1553871 wrote:I'm not a fan of theirs but there is no doubt in my mind Hot Fuss will be highly regarded in 50 years

edit: muse sucks, their shit all sounds the same
who?
Dec 15, 2013 10:28pm
S

sportchampps

Senior Member

7,361 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:31 PM
In 50 years I think a few bands have a chance.

The Killers
The Black Keys
Jack White Solo ( white stripes were 97)
Arcade Fire
Kayne West ( I hate him)
Alabama Shakes
Adele
Lady Gaga ( the new Madonna)
eminem
Bon Iver
Arctic monkeys
Dec 15, 2013 10:31pm
S

sportchampps

Senior Member

7,361 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:32 PM
Hot fuss is the killers album
Dec 15, 2013 10:32pm
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

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7,809 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:33 PM
Mohican00;1553916 wrote: Just because something is pleasing to a lot of people does not mean that it is good. That ignores originality and construction which leads to stale, run of the mill top 40 hits......which is a problem with your popular music.
but because something is different than the run of the mill top 40 hits, doesn't make it good music either. if it was good music, it would become popular and rise to the top. I am not denying record labels and marketing doesn't have a lot to do with your "top 40 list", but if enough people liked that outside the box "original" music, wouldn't those big record companies want to make a piece of that profit? or let me guess, those bands don't want to make it big and prefer playing in shit hole bars and venues?
Dec 15, 2013 10:33pm
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

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Dec 15, 2013 10:33 PM
sportchampps;1553922 wrote:Hot fuss is the killers album
who?

haha my GF listens to a lot of stuff I haven't heard of, and I still haven't heard of these guys.
Dec 15, 2013 10:33pm
Mohican00's avatar

Mohican00

Dirty White Boy

3,394 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:39 PM
Glory Days;1553924 wrote:but because something is different than the run of the mill top 40 hits, doesn't make it good music either. if it was good music, it would become popular and rise to the top. I am not denying record labels and marketing doesn't have a lot to do with your "top 40 list", but if enough people liked that outside the box "original" music, wouldn't those big record companies want to make a piece of that profit? or let me guess, those bands don't want to make it big and prefer playing in shit hole bars and venues?
Never said fringe music was good music. But there is stuff off the radar that I enjoy, and maybe....you might too.

And I hate to bring him up but by your logic, Justin Bieber is the greatest thing going.......popular, rose to the top.

So tell me, when did you become a Belieber?
Dec 15, 2013 10:39pm
S

sportchampps

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7,361 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:40 PM
Coldplay released their first cd pretty close to 2000 maybe 1999.


Not knowing the killers really hurts your music credibility. They have 7 Grammy nominations and hot fuss alone sold 7 million albums
Dec 15, 2013 10:40pm
M

MontyBrunswick

Dec 15, 2013 10:41 PM
I know the Killers, and don't think they belong in the conversation
Dec 15, 2013 10:41pm
Mohican00's avatar

Mohican00

Dirty White Boy

3,394 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:43 PM
sportchampps;1553934 wrote:Coldplay released their first cd pretty close to 2000 maybe 1999.


Noy yo knowing the killers really hurts your music credibility. They have 7 Grammy nominations and hot fuss alone sold 7 million albums
Parachutes, Coldplay's first album, came out in 2000. I was going to mention them in response to pmoney's "who is the most popular rock band of the new millennium" but didn't want to get into a shitfest about whether or not coldplay is a rock band
Dec 15, 2013 10:43pm
Classyposter58's avatar

Classyposter58

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6,321 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:52 PM
I think actually music is becoming less and less mainstream overall, with modern communications, social media, and the plain individualistic nature of our society that has really taken off since the 80s, we'll wind up here in about 20 years with it everywhere but as a whole popular music is being phased out I think truly. I do not think we can get anymore rhythm oriented in the style than we already are, compared to in the early 20th century we had a world where everything was melody driven.

Also consider the emergence of foreign powers such as China and India, as they grow in size and influence, soon they will begin to change the way music sounds in the west and create very different sounds than we're accustomed to hearing, well maybe more so from India because China is becoming much too western
Dec 15, 2013 10:52pm
M

MontyBrunswick

Dec 15, 2013 10:55 PM
Classyposter58;1553943 wrote:I think actually music is becoming less and less mainstream overall
you are wrong
Dec 15, 2013 10:55pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 15, 2013 10:56 PM
Mohican00;1553916 wrote: but who are you to say that fringe, unpopular acts can't be enjoyed by people? That's kind of elitist in itself
got anymore strawman arguments you'd like to construct?

No one ever said that the music isn't good, if you like that particular genre. However, most genres have enough broad appeal to be popular if the music is truly good. But your preference for that particular group/genre probably overrates the true quality.

You talk about young/teenage girls with people like Bieber and other groups - that's still a really huge segment. Not to remotely suggest it is "good" music, but trying to claim music that appeals to a very small group of people is good is a bit of a stretch. Good music rarely has such limited appeal.

You act like there's some magic formula or secret to making "popular" junk music. But the fact is for every Bieber there are hundreds of people just like him that flopped. I don't care for the genre, but to say it's complete crap is a rather subjective judgement. We can say we don't like the genre, but Bieber is clearly one of the good groups in that genre. And I would suggest some groups you might like would be similarly considered garbage by people who don't care much for the genre.
Dec 15, 2013 10:56pm
Glory Days's avatar

Glory Days

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7,809 posts
Dec 16, 2013 1:21 AM
sportchampps;1553934 wrote:Coldplay released their first cd pretty close to 2000 maybe 1999.


Not knowing the killers really hurts your music credibility. They have 7 Grammy nominations and hot fuss alone sold 7 million albums
Weird Al Yankovic had 14 nominations and won 3.
Dec 16, 2013 1:21am
Automatik's avatar

Automatik

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14,632 posts
Dec 16, 2013 9:29 AM
dlazz;1553946 wrote:you are wrong
I'm with you. Rollling Stone's top albums of 2013....

20. Laura Marling - Once I was an Eagle
19. NIN - Hesitation Marks
18. Ashley Monroe - Like a Rose
17. Danny Brown - Old
16. David Bowie - The Next Day
15. Atoms for Peace - Amok
14. Drake - Nothing was the Same
13. Disclosure - Settle
12. Jake Bugg - Jake Bugg
11. Parquet Courts - Light Up Gold
10. John Fogerty - Wrote a Song for Everyone
09. Arctic Monkeys - AM
08. The National - Trouble Will Find Me
07. Lorde - Pure Heroin
06. Queens of the Stone Age - ...like Clockwork
05. Arcade Fire - Reflektor
04. Paul McCartney - New
03. Daft Punk - Random Access Memories
02. Kanye West - Yeezus
01. Vampire Weekend - Modern Vampires of the City

Full list of the top 50: LINK
Dec 16, 2013 9:29am
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sportchampps

Senior Member

7,361 posts
Dec 16, 2013 1:56 PM
Saying werid al won three Grammys to try and discount saying who about the killers is dumb. Werid al won his in the comedy area which has very little to do with music
Dec 16, 2013 1:56pm
T

thavoice

Senior Member

14,376 posts
Dec 16, 2013 2:02 PM
Automatik;1554017 wrote:I'm with you. Rollling Stone's top albums of 2013....

20. Laura Marling - Once I was an Eagle
19. NIN - Hesitation Marks
18. Ashley Monroe - Like a Rose
17. Danny Brown - Old
16. David Bowie - The Next Day
15. Atoms for Peace - Amok
14. Drake - Nothing was the Same
13. Disclosure - Settle
12. Jake Bugg - Jake Bugg
11. Parquet Courts - Light Up Gold
10. John Fogerty - Wrote a Song for Everyone
09. Arctic Monkeys - AM
08. The National - Trouble Will Find Me
07. Lorde - Pure Heroin
06. Queens of the Stone Age - ...like Clockwork
05. Arcade Fire - Reflektor
04. Paul McCartney - New
03. Daft Punk - Random Access Memories
02. Kanye West - Yeezus
01. Vampire Weekend - Modern Vampires of the City

Full list of the top 50: LINK
Wow. I have heard of 5 of those artists, NIN, Bowie, Fogerty, McCartney and asshole KW.
Dec 16, 2013 2:02pm
Automatik's avatar

Automatik

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14,632 posts
Dec 16, 2013 2:10 PM
I've heard of most of them. I was glad to see Disclosure got some recognition...I'm a big fan.
Dec 16, 2013 2:10pm
Mohican00's avatar

Mohican00

Dirty White Boy

3,394 posts
Dec 16, 2013 2:28 PM
gut;1553948 wrote:got anymore strawman arguments you'd like to construct?

No one ever said that the music isn't good, if you like that particular genre. However, most genres have enough broad appeal to be popular if the music is truly good. But your preference for that particular group/genre probably overrates the true quality.

You talk about young/teenage girls with people like Bieber and other groups - that's still a really huge segment. Not to remotely suggest it is "good" music, but trying to claim music that appeals to a very small group of people is good is a bit of a stretch. Good music rarely has such limited appeal.

You act like there's some magic formula or secret to making "popular" junk music. But the fact is for every Bieber there are hundreds of people just like him that flopped. I don't care for the genre, but to say it's complete crap is a rather subjective judgement. We can say we don't like the genre, but Bieber is clearly one of the good groups in that genre. And I would suggest some groups you might like would be similarly considered garbage by people who don't care much for the genre.
strawman....lol, seems to be the OC's buzzword for any contrarian position. Anyway...

I'm just taking everything you said and laying it out there: music + huge appeal = good.
but trying to claim music that appeals to a very small group of people is good is a bit of a stretch. Good music rarely has such limited appeal.
music - huge appeal = it can't be that good.....if we're throwing out logical fallacies, how about your circular reasoning that popular music is good music because it is is popular. Plus, how you can you just broadly dismiss or not even give a chance to said music without even giving it a chance?
But the fact is for every Bieber there are hundreds of people just like him that flopped
Sure, some people/acts are good at it, some aren't. Just the way the world works

At least when I say popular music is crap I give reasons (formulaic, stale, rehashed). Now, is that to say I don't find some popular music catchy and enjoyable? Absolutely not, I played the shit out of a few Foster the People songs last year. Now we're any of those songs off I enjoyed off of classic, complete albums? Shit that's gonna be talked about 50 years from now? No......and add this to the list of my gripes about popular music, consistency.

You can like whatever you want, IDGAF, but to casually dismiss less mainstream works as not good is premature when I'm wondering if you have ever given said artists a chance
Dec 16, 2013 2:28pm
Mohican00's avatar

Mohican00

Dirty White Boy

3,394 posts
Dec 16, 2013 2:39 PM
Automatik;1554017 wrote:I'm with you. Rollling Stone's top albums of 2013....

20. Laura Marling - Once I was an Eagle
19. NIN - Hesitation Marks
18. Ashley Monroe - Like a Rose
17. Danny Brown - Old
16. David Bowie - The Next Day
15. Atoms for Peace - Amok
14. Drake - Nothing was the Same
13. Disclosure - Settle
12. Jake Bugg - Jake Bugg
11. Parquet Courts - Light Up Gold
10. John Fogerty - Wrote a Song for Everyone
09. Arctic Monkeys - AM
08. The National - Trouble Will Find Me
07. Lorde - Pure Heroin
06. Queens of the Stone Age - ...like Clockwork
05. Arcade Fire - Reflektor
04. Paul McCartney - New
03. Daft Punk - Random Access Memories
02. Kanye West - Yeezus
01. Vampire Weekend - Modern Vampires of the City

Full list of the top 50: LINK
Not a bad list for Rolling Stone. I'd say it's every bit as good as Pitchfork's best of 2013. Still don't know why the love for Yeezus

10. Phosphorescent - Muchacho
9. Daft Punk - Random Access Memories
8. Deafheaven - Sunbather
7. Darkside - Psychic
6. Burial - Rival Dealer
5. My Bloody Valentine - m b v
4. Disclosure - Settle
3. Arcade Fire - Reflektor
2. Vampire Weekend - Modern Vampires of the City
1. Kanye West - Yeezus
Dec 16, 2013 2:39pm
reclegend22's avatar

reclegend22

Cool Hand Luke

8,772 posts
Dec 16, 2013 2:49 PM
Classyposter58;1553943 wrote:Also consider the emergence of foreign powers such as China and India, as they grow in size and influence, soon they will begin to change the way music sounds in the west and create very different sounds than we're accustomed to hearing, well maybe more so from India because China is becoming much too western
That sounds like something I once heard in an Asian pop music class. I took one when I was at BGSU to fill some ridiculous requirement or another because I'd heard the class was easy as shit. My final paper for that course was titled "Public Enemies: How Godzilla, Mothra and Chuck D Helped Forge a Hip-Hop Revolution in Japan." It consisted of 12 pages of complete nonsense interwoven with big words and Asian slang. That class was the worst thing I've ever willingly participated in, by a wide margin.

My ultimate observation from that class is that if Western music ever begins to sound Asian then music can officially be declared dead.

[video=youtube;yzC4hFK5P3g][/video]
Dec 16, 2013 2:49pm
Iliketurtles's avatar

Iliketurtles

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8,191 posts
Dec 16, 2013 3:07 PM
thavoice;1554165 wrote:Wow. I have heard of 5 of those artists, NIN, Bowie, Fogerty, McCartney and asshole KW.
You haven't heard of Arcade Fire? You should give them a chance they are pretty decent.
Dec 16, 2013 3:07pm
Scarlet_Buckeye's avatar

Scarlet_Buckeye

Senior Member

5,264 posts
Dec 16, 2013 4:13 PM
I find myself hating today's music more & more. Even Drake's stuff recently has been terrible, and I consider Drake to be 1 of my 3 favorite rappers (along with Kanye and Kid Cudi).

When you stop and listen to music like Led Zeppelin, it's really hard to argue "music today is good/great". It's just not even a fair debate.
Dec 16, 2013 4:13pm
Automatik's avatar

Automatik

Senior Member

14,632 posts
Dec 16, 2013 4:16 PM
I've said it many times...

Good, great, excellent music is out there.
Dec 16, 2013 4:16pm
Classyposter58's avatar

Classyposter58

Senior Member

6,321 posts
Dec 16, 2013 4:24 PM
reclegend22;1554198 wrote:That sounds like something I once heard in an Asian pop music class. I took one when I was at BGSU to fill some ridiculous requirement or another because I'd heard the class was easy as shit. My final paper for that course was titled "Public Enemies: How Godzilla, Mothra and Chuck D Helped Forge a Hip-Hop Revolution in Japan." It consisted of 12 pages of complete nonsense interwoven with big words and Asian slang. That class was the worst thing I've ever willingly participated in, by a wide margin.

My ultimate observation from that class is that if Western music ever begins to sound Asian then music can officially be declared dead.

[video=youtube;yzC4hFK5P3g][/video]
Ha it's the BGSU connection I guess
Dec 16, 2013 4:24pm