SnotBubbles wrote: Let's try and discuss this while putting our religious beliefs to the side. Seriously...if we had no "religion," would the world be a better place? So much of the humanity's evils are caused by religion. What do you think?

Technically, it's unprovable to say that "so much of the humanity's evils [sic] are caused by religion."

To be accurate, you COULD say that so many of humanity's evils are TIED to religion or CHAMPIONED BY religion. In cases of war, oppression, and other such evils, it is not logically provable whether or not something used to catalyze an action or event is the same thing that drives it.

An analogy would be something like this:

When I start a campfire, the catalyst to the fire might be lighter fluid. However, the lighter fluid is not WHY I start the fire, but HOW I start the fire. WHY I start it may be because I'm cold.

Basically, many religious connections to atrocities may not have been cause-effect connections. Instead, religion was the kerosene that one person decided to use to fuel his own fire, which was created out of his own desires, and not necessarily those of the religious beliefs he is espousing.

sleeper wrote: Do you truly believe if we didn't have the ten commandments, theft, murder, and perjury would be legal?

This is exactly why religion is bad, makes the whole population absolutely delusional.

"Whole population?" I call logical fallacy.

Indeed the Code of Hammurabi was around prior to the Ten Commandments, indicating that man would have arrived at SOME sort of agreed-on social ethic. However, to suggest, either way, anything more specific would be conjecture at best. Maybe things would have been largely the same. Maybe not.

Cat Food Flambe' wrote: Then again,we'd just find something else to serve as a "holy mandate"

If there was a clapping emoticon, I'd use it. I think this is the most probable case.

If religion wasn't around, I don't think we'd have any fewer atrocities. We'd just find something else about which to fight.

Strapping Young Lad wrote: Those laws which outlaw murder, theft, perjury, etc. are pretty basic ideas that help any social community, ancient or contemporary, function more efficiently. I don't think it takes God to figure that out.

Actually, there are indeed societies, even today, that consider lying/perjury/deceit to be a virtue, not a vice. Same with theft.

We might consider these cultures socially underdeveloped, though one might wonder what plum line we are using to make such an evaluation.

underdog32 wrote: I think it's a wash. With or without religion people would be fighting over something. It is not so much the fault of any one religion as it is crazy people using religion as an excuse to do bad things.

*Stands and claps*

j_crazy wrote: another thing that irks me is how stubborn people get about it. if tomorrow they replicated the big bang and proved once and for all that God didn't create the earth, people still would blindly deny it. religion is fear mongering in disguise.

Logically speaking, a replicated "big bang" wouldn't prove anything. If replicated, that means it was still done with volition, intention, and by sentient beings ... a far cry from an accidental collision of nondescript matter.

One can argue this back and forth all day. However, it cannot be said for certain whether we would be better off socially. It can be guessed, but not stated with any real assurance. Too many unknown and unquantifiable variables.

Does anyone still think that I'm not the real OTrap?

O-Trap wrote: Does anyone still think that I'm not the real OTrap?

I'm not convinced!

Most religions preach tolerance and peace, I don't see why that is a detriment to society. Like it's been stated before, if there weren't religion, we would find something else to fight about. Even before there was any sense of religion man was killing off one another.

"Whole population?" I call logical fallacy.

Indeed the Code of Hammurabi was around prior to the Ten Commandments, indicating that man would have arrived at SOME sort of agreed-on social ethic. However, to suggest, either way, anything more specific would be conjecture at best. Maybe things would have been largely the same. Maybe not.

By whole population, I meant only the religious believers.

I'm not arguing that our laws aren't based off the Ten commandments, I'm saying that if religion was never "invented", at some point in time the people would get together and decide that having the ability to kill others without punishment should be outlawed. Obviously, that is just one example of a law that would be enacted without the help of religion, I'm sure people in power would eventually want to control their constituents.

Mr Pat wrote:

O-Trap wrote: Does anyone still think that I'm not the real OTrap?

I'm not convinced!

Most religions preach tolerance and peace, I don't see why that is a detriment to society. Like it's been stated before, if there weren't religion, we would find something else to fight about. Even before there was any sense of religion man was killing off one another.

See 9/11/2001

I could prove if the freehuddle otrap is the REAL one by a simple PM.

Gonna be alot of embarassed theologians on the planet when the aliens show up. And this will happen within the next 50 yrs. We are now capable of throwing so much more advanced digital signaling into space somebody or something will be showing up before long.

I think that the idea of believing in a higher power is fine. This has proved for some people to help them get through tough times and continue living their lives. It also gives people more of a sense of peace in coming to terms with the idea of death, as well as preach good moral and social value.

However, the idea of organized religion I believe is a detriment to the world. You look at it historically and not only have there been countless wars and acts of violence committed in the name of religion, but various religions have been corrupt and taken advantage of people and their resources. Look at some of the early days of the Catholic Church where you could "buy your way" into heaven and the pope was a more of a political office than a spiritual leader. Or look at the current state of Scientology masking itself as a religion in order to take advantage of people.

The Gospel of Thomas (which you won't find in the Bible because the church felt that its message was a detriment to their own fiscal cause) says in verse 77. " I am the light that is over them all. I am the All; the All has come forth from me, and the All has attained unto me. Split a piece of wood and I am there. Raise up the stone, an ye shall find me there." Basically, you don't need to go to church to be a good person. You also don't need to go to church to find God, because God is everywhere. Therefore I do not see how people giving their time, money, and lives to an organized religion is beneficial. Having a personal relationship with God (or Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, Chuck Norris, whomever) is far more beneficial both on a personal and societal level in my opinion.

sleeper wrote:

Mr Pat wrote:

O-Trap wrote: Does anyone still think that I'm not the real OTrap?

I'm not convinced!

Most religions preach tolerance and peace, I don't see why that is a detriment to society. Like it's been stated before, if there weren't religion, we would find something else to fight about. Even before there was any sense of religion man was killing off one another.

See 9/11/2001

You really think if those people didn't have religion they wouldn't kill? Come on now man. If they didn't have religion as an excuse to kill, they'd find another reason.

Tiernan wrote: Gonna be alot of embarassed theologians on the planet when the aliens show up. And this will happen within the next 50 yrs. We are now capable of throwing so much more advanced digital signaling into space somebody or something will be showing up before long.

Where does the Bible say there are no aliens?

O-Trap wrote: Does anyone still think that I'm not the real OTrap?

I have a slate of questions for you.

Then, if answered correctly, you can disprove this business once and for all.


Oh............by the way......................BRF says that religion is good..............in the "western" world.

If religion were not around, the real meaning of wars would come out. Mankinds thirst for power, money, and land.

Also in my opinion the existence of aliens would not automatically disprove existence of a God.

pmoney25 wrote: If religion were not around, the real meaning of wars would come out. Mankinds thirst for power, money, and land.

Also in my opinion the existence of aliens would not automatically disprove existence of a God.

Ding ding ding!!!!

Mr Pat wrote:

sleeper wrote:

Mr Pat wrote:

O-Trap wrote: Does anyone still think that I'm not the real OTrap?

I'm not convinced!

Most religions preach tolerance and peace, I don't see why that is a detriment to society. Like it's been stated before, if there weren't religion, we would find something else to fight about. Even before there was any sense of religion man was killing off one another.

See 9/11/2001

You really think if those people didn't have religion they wouldn't kill? Come on now man. If they didn't have religion as an excuse to kill, they'd find another reason.

Can you prove that?

Unfortunately I think if it weren't religion causing people to kill it would be politics, and if not politics it would be some other difference that caused people to fight. Though saying that ours or any other laws came from the 10 commandments or our morals are learned from religion would be terrifying if it were really so. I would never teach my children the perverted morals of the bible. And can you imagine being charged with blasphemy or for working on a sunday. Ridiculous if you can't get past all the crap by the time you're an adult and hopefully keep the nonsense from spreading to the next generation. Religion is divisive and exclusive, an enemy of science and progress, and one of the obstacles to true unity and peace.

A little bit of both. There is a long history of human beings using religion to better them selves, their societies and their lot. There is also an equally long history of people exploiting religion for their own gain.

If people lived according to the NT, I don't think their would be as much trouble in the world. We'll always have our Judas Iscariots, who live their lives for money and power, but as a whole, society would be better off.

If people truly lived according to the NT there would be a lot more atrocities and violence in the name of a god, unless of course you pick and choose the few good things and ignore all the violence. The only code one needs to live by is "The Golden Rule", which predates all monotheism by many, many years.

There may be socities that see murder, lying, perjury as virtues but they are the exception, not the rule. Of course there will be some instances where these things make social life easier or simply are not detrimental, but they are few and far between.

To think that we needed a god to tell us not to murder is silly. All of us lie, that's no crime.

The idea that some societies function better when they are able to murder or lie, etc. seems to defeat the idea that these things are inherently wrong I guess. Only if you believe in morality.

Strapping Young Lad wrote: All of us lie, that's no crime.

Perjury, maybe?

underdog32 wrote:

j_crazy wrote: another thing that irks me is how stubborn people get about it. if tomorrow they replicated the big bang and proved once and for all that God didn't create the earth, people still would blindly deny it. religion is fear mongering in disguise.

But what created the big bang :huh:

^^^^^^^^^
The question for eternity (not necessarily the big bang, but more of where/why did this all begin?, and how did it begin?)

This one question provides a "gap" for religious thoughts to begin. Religion is a way (for the human mind) to cope with the unknown.

I see that OTrap beat me to this thread and answered most of the questions, so I'll just jump in a little bit.

krazie45 wrote: The Gospel of Thomas (which you won't find in the Bible because the church felt that its message was a detriment to their own fiscal cause) says in verse 77. " I am the light that is over them all. I am the All; the All has come forth from me, and the All has attained unto me. Split a piece of wood and I am there. Raise up the stone, an ye shall find me there." Basically, you don't need to go to church to be a good person. You also don't need to go to church to find God, because God is everywhere. Therefore I do not see how people giving their time, money, and lives to an organized religion is beneficial. Having a personal relationship with God (or Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, Chuck Norris, whomever) is far more beneficial both on a personal and societal level in my opinion.

How familiar are you with the gnostic gospels and why they were/were not included in the canon? There are a number of very good reasons why the GoT wasn't directly included in the canon, and the church's pecuniary interest wasn't among those, as far as historian's can tell. That's a little too much Dan Brown and not enough history.

Regardless, I'm not sure your exegesis on v77 is particularly accurate. If anything, v77 suggests something more pantheistic and gnostic, which is the traditional scholarly reading of the GoT. The idea of God being all and in all is more closely akin to various gnostic movements in the Middle East, e.g., the Sufis. But being pantheist and gnostic doesn't necessarily go against communal meeting and "organized" religion. We've seen most groups along those lines become more communal than ever. The idea of "individualized pantheism" is a bastardized American creation that basically says, "I want to believe in something convenient so I can be spiritual, but I don't want to have to do anything real about it." That is an admittedly convenient, pluralistic, and non-threatening way to approach religion, but that doesn't seem to square up with rigorous philosophical or theological thought.

In short, I'm not sure where you got your information from regarding the GoT, but from what you've typed here, it appears that you've built a personal belief system based on an erroneous (albeit conveniently western) interpretation of one of the Nag Hammadi docs. You can believe whatever you want and live your life however you want, but it's not reasonable to throw out your thoughts on this as though they're accurate. Hold 'em, but treat 'em like what they are--a way for Americans to feel good but not have to follow through.

Re aliens: the Bible doesn't say (or even suggest) that there are no aliens. The Bible states that there are non-human beings that exist. I assume there is other intelligent life out there, which is consistent with (and reinforced by) the Bible itself. I don't know why that would be embarrassing for religious people unless they took a hard line over a meaningless issue (which happens all the time. See, e.g., Falwell and the dinosaur bones). Picking apart the words of dumb Christians is pretty easy, and while it proves that there are some religious morons out there, these sort of ad hominem attacks don't say much at all about the validity of the religion itself.

Interesting reading.

So.............when is the next update on who has started the most threads?

underdog32 wrote:

j_crazy wrote: another thing that irks me is how stubborn people get about it. if tomorrow they replicated the big bang and proved once and for all that God didn't create the earth, people still would blindly deny it. religion is fear mongering in disguise.

But what created the big bang :huh:

What created god?

I Wear Pants wrote:

underdog32 wrote:

j_crazy wrote: another thing that irks me is how stubborn people get about it. if tomorrow they replicated the big bang and proved once and for all that God didn't create the earth, people still would blindly deny it. religion is fear mongering in disguise.

But what created the big bang :huh:

What created god?

Thats easy. Man did.

The universe is eternal no need to add some supernatural beings to the equation it violates Occams Razor.