cbus4life wrote: My question...and the one i struggle with most of all...is which religion is right?

Are the millions of followers of Islam "wrong," and they're going to hell?

Are the millions of followers of Buddhism "wrong," and they're going to hell?

I mean, i understand religion being a "personal" thing and all, but if you believe that your religion is the one "true" religion, that, essentially, means that there can be no wiggle room on the fact that, those who don't believe, are going to hell because they are heathen, non-believers, and have not accepted Christ into their heart.

Or do they end up somewhere else? Or do they really get to go to their religions version of the "afterlife?"

I don't know how to reconcile this and make it fit rationally.

Would God create a system whereby millions upon millions of people are going to end up hell because they are non-believers? Seems rather sick to me.

My favorite response to this was from a Muslim friend i had in England, who said, upon my moving away, that it is a "shame that we would be going to two different heavens." Seemed interesting, as he seemed to believe that we would both be rewarded in the afterlife based on our own personal beliefs.

But, i know this isn't the attitude of everyone.

Trust me, even as a Christian this one has always boggled my mind some. I mean, technically Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham. The 3 just have different beliefs branching from there. The Jews/Muslims branch at Isaac/Ishmael and the Christians branch at Jesus.

I know what Christianity teaches, I know what I believe, but I've always had this same lingering question.

GoPens wrote: I remember my 5th grade Sunday School class. I asked the teacher if there wouldn't be any Japanese or Indian people in Heaven since they weren't Christian. She looked at me funny and couldn't come up with an answer.

There are plenty of Japanese and Indian people who are Christian...there's about 1 million Christians in Japan and 26 million Christians in India...

Logic and faith are not the same thing. Obviously, in order to believe, you have to accept things that can't necessarily be proven by hard and fast factual evidence. I must admit that I have had a lot of trouble with that periodically. You also have to select the one "true religion" and naturally there are a lot of versions of who God is, and what the "proper" interpretation is, so that we all are on the correct page. I personally believe that whatever you chose to believe represents your religious views. They belong to you. You have the Bible, which ever Bible you prefer, and you form your theology. I can't see where you need to explain it to someone else and then argue over it to the point of confrontation. If you believe you need to be in church every week....then go. If you believe that your God can be experienced in a million different places and organized "church religion" is unnecessary, then that is what you should practice. It's a free country.

jmog wrote:

GoPens wrote: I remember my 5th grade Sunday School class. I asked the teacher if there wouldn't be any Japanese or Indian people in Heaven since they weren't Christian. She looked at me funny and couldn't come up with an answer.

There are plenty of Japanese and Indian people who are Christian...there's about 1 million Christians in Japan and 26 million Christians in India...

Maybe he means Native Americans?

I also know of many Christians in India and Missionaries serving there to this day. I have a good friend that served in India for 40 years and used to walk into Tibet. He was invited to meet with the Dali Lama on many occasions to discuss religious views.

jefft01 wrote: Religion is divisive and exclusive, an enemy of science and progress, and one of the obstacles to true unity and peace.

Tell that to Francis Collins (Human Genome Project).

Jawbreaker wrote:

jmog wrote:

GoPens wrote: I remember my 5th grade Sunday School class. I asked the teacher if there wouldn't be any Japanese or Indian people in Heaven since they weren't Christian. She looked at me funny and couldn't come up with an answer.

There are plenty of Japanese and Indian people who are Christian...there's about 1 million Christians in Japan and 26 million Christians in India...

Maybe he means Native Americans?

I also know of many Christians in India and Missionaries serving there to this day. I have a good friend that served in India for 40 years and used to walk into Tibet was even invited to meet with the Dali Lama on many occasions to discuss religious views.

Well, considering he was only in 5th grade, i would imagine the question was because, from what i know, Christians are obviously not a majority in either of those countries.

I understand what you're saying, but given the age and setting, still an appropriate question.

cbus4life wrote: I mean, i understand religion being a "personal" thing and all, but if you believe that your religion is the one "true" religion, that, essentially, means that there can be no wiggle room on the fact that, those who don't believe, are going to hell because they are heathen, non-believers, and have not accepted Christ into their heart.

I am with you on this point. I was raised catholic and attended catholic school where I was taught that only 1/6th of the worlds people would ever make it to heaven and that the rest, no matter or good or virtuous they were in their lives, could never enter paradise. That idea always bothered me. My argument was and still is that if you live a good life, treat others with dignity and respect that things will work out in the end regardless of where you stand on the question of religion. The logic basically being that if god is truly the benevolent being that we were taught he was, caring for the entirety of humanity, he wouldn't accept a system whereby the majority of his creation would be spending eternity not with him, but in hell. That argument got me kicked out of religion class more times than I care to remember, and conversely I never received much in the way of counter argument to my original point.

I've always had questions about historical accuracies concerning religion. If there is one thing that stand out to be true regarding this issue, it is this: History is not what happened, history is what was written down.

Add into the mix the problems that arise with various and multiple translations, political agendas during a particular time, and you've got a good recipe for confusion and bewilderment.

Jawbreaker wrote:

jefft01 wrote: Religion is divisive and exclusive, an enemy of science and progress, and one of the obstacles to true unity and peace.

Tell that to Francis Collins (Human Genome Project).

What should we have told Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Halley, Darwin, or Hubble?

3reppom wrote:

cbus4life wrote: I mean, i understand religion being a "personal" thing and all, but if you believe that your religion is the one "true" religion, that, essentially, means that there can be no wiggle room on the fact that, those who don't believe, are going to hell because they are heathen, non-believers, and have not accepted Christ into their heart.

I am with you on this point. I was raised catholic and attended catholic school where I was taught that only 1/6th of the worlds people would ever make it to heaven and that the rest, no matter or good or virtuous they were in their lives, could never enter paradise. That idea always bothered me. My argument was and still is that if you live a good life, treat others with dignity and respect that things will work out in the end regardless of where you stand on the question of religion. The logic basically being that if god is truly the benevolent being that we were taught he was, caring for the entirety of humanity, he wouldn't accept a system whereby the majority of his creation would be spending eternity not with him, but in hell. That argument got me kicked out of religion class more times than I care to remember, and conversely I never received much in the way of counter argument to my original point.

I pretty much see things the same way.

jefft01 wrote:

Jawbreaker wrote:

jefft01 wrote: Religion is divisive and exclusive, an enemy of science and progress, and one of the obstacles to true unity and peace.

Tell that to Francis Collins (Human Genome Project).

What should we have told Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Halley, Darwin, or Hubble?

Newton was a Christian.
Galileo tried to explain to the ignorant church at the time that his cosmic findings coincided just fine with the Bible. Just because the church chastised him wrongly, doesn't mean Galileo wasn't a religious man himself. He was a devoit Catholic even though the Catholic church turned their back on him.
Copernicus believed in God, but was also chastised by the church for the same reason Galileo was. Matter of fact Copernicus said "God would have put the sun at the centre of the universe because the sun was perfect". He also said that "God would have created a simple universe" and that his model was much simpler than previous ones with the Sun at the center.

Einstein also believed in an intelligence but wouldn't call it the Judeo-Christian "God". He said
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.
—Albert Einstein
Basically the more we learn about the science of the universe the closer we get to knowing more about the creator of the universe was Einstein's view.

jefft01 wrote:

Mr Pat wrote:

jefft01 wrote: If people truly lived according to the NT there would be a lot more atrocities and violence in the name of a god, unless of course you pick and choose the few good things and ignore all the violence. The only code one needs to live by is "The Golden Rule", which predates all monotheism by many, many years.

Disagree. Unless "he is who is without sin may cast the first stone" would invite a lot more atrocities.

So apparently you haven't read the NT if you think that's the only thing in it. Like I said, if you are selective you can find some good things there, but you'll also find as much, injustice, violence, and cruelty.

You say I'm selective but you bring out 5 passages that people called out your misinterpretations of it. Almost all of Jesus' teachings are about peace, even nailed to the cross right up until the end, "Forgive them father, they know not what they do."

Even mentions a sword, "All who live by the sword shall die by the sword."

jmog wrote:

jefft01 wrote:

Jawbreaker wrote:

jefft01 wrote: Religion is divisive and exclusive, an enemy of science and progress, and one of the obstacles to true unity and peace.

Tell that to Francis Collins (Human Genome Project).

What should we have told Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Halley, Darwin, or Hubble?

Newton was a Christian.
Galileo tried to explain to the ignorant church at the time that his cosmic findings coincided just fine with the Bible. Just because the church chastised him wrongly, doesn't mean Galileo wasn't a religious man himself. He was a devoit Catholic even though the Catholic church turned their back on him.
Copernicus believed in God, but was also chastised by the church for the same reason Galileo was. Matter of fact Copernicus said "God would have put the sun at the centre of the universe because the sun was perfect". He also said that "God would have created a simple universe" and that his model was much simpler than previous ones with the Sun at the center.

Einstein also believed in an intelligence but wouldn't call it "God". He said
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.
—Albert Einstein
Basically the more we learn about the science of the universe the closer we get to knowing more about the creator of the universe was Einstein's view.

I'm not sure where I said any of these people were atheists or non-religious. My point was that they had all earned the wrath of the church (evidence of religion as a hindrance to science). In response to the Francis Collins comment that made no sense in the context of my original post.

Mr Pat wrote:

jefft01 wrote:

Mr Pat wrote:

jefft01 wrote: If people truly lived according to the NT there would be a lot more atrocities and violence in the name of a god, unless of course you pick and choose the few good things and ignore all the violence. The only code one needs to live by is "The Golden Rule", which predates all monotheism by many, many years.

Disagree. Unless "he is who is without sin may cast the first stone" would invite a lot more atrocities.

So apparently you haven't read the NT if you think that's the only thing in it. Like I said, if you are selective you can find some good things there, but you'll also find as much, injustice, violence, and cruelty.

You say I'm selective but you bring out 5 passages that people called out your misinterpretations of it. Almost all of Jesus' teachings are about peace, even nailed to the cross right up until the end, "Forgive them father, they know not what they do."

Even mentions a sword, "All who live by the sword shall die by the sword."

You think there are only 5 passages? Do your own research. There are plenty more.

jmog wrote:

GoPens wrote: I remember my 5th grade Sunday School class. I asked the teacher if there wouldn't be any Japanese or Indian people in Heaven since they weren't Christian. She looked at me funny and couldn't come up with an answer.

There are plenty of Japanese and Indian people who are Christian...there's about 1 million Christians in Japan and 26 million Christians in India...

Didn't know this at the time only being in 5th grade, however, with over 1 billion people in India, 26 million is a drop in the bucket. So, are there not going to be many Indians in Heaven??

And do your research, everything Jesus taught was peace. You made the claim that if people followed the NT (you know the one that talks about Jesus) that people would commit a lot more atrocities and violence, which goes agaist completely everything Jesus taught.

As for me researching your claim, that's your job. You don't make a claim and tell someone to look it up for you. Especially where I can point to Jesus' whole ministry and show you examples of how He teaches peace.

cbus4life wrote: My question...and the one i struggle with most of all...is which religion is right?

Are the millions of followers of Islam "wrong," and they're going to hell?

Are the millions of followers of Buddhism "wrong," and they're going to hell?

I mean, i understand religion being a "personal" thing and all, but if you believe that your religion is the one "true" religion, that, essentially, means that there can be no wiggle room on the fact that, those who don't believe, are going to hell because they are heathen, non-believers, and have not accepted Christ into their heart.

Or do they end up somewhere else? Or do they really get to go to their religions version of the "afterlife?"

I don't know how to reconcile this and make it fit rationally.

Would God create a system whereby millions upon millions of people are going to end up hell because they are non-believers? Seems rather sick to me.

If you're interested in reading a well-put together explanation of this, Richard Swinburne has a number of excellent (though not particularly accessible) books on the subject. I can't begin to do him justice here, but he answers those questions in very reasonable, rational ways.

Mr Pat wrote: And do your research, everything Jesus taught was peace. You made the claim that if people followed the NT (you know the one that talks about Jesus) that people would commit a lot more atrocities and violence, which goes agaist completely everything Jesus taught.

As for me researching your claim, that's your job. You don't make a claim and tell someone to look it up for you. Especially where I can point to Jesus' whole ministry and show you examples of how He teaches peace.

Someone else actually made the claim that following the NT would make the world a better place.

jefft01 wrote:

Mr Pat wrote: And do your research, everything Jesus taught was peace. You made the claim that if people followed the NT (you know the one that talks about Jesus) that people would commit a lot more atrocities and violence, which goes agaist completely everything Jesus taught.

As for me researching your claim, that's your job. You don't make a claim and tell someone to look it up for you. Especially where I can point to Jesus' whole ministry and show you examples of how He teaches peace.

Someone else actually made the claim that following the NT would make the world a better place.

I made the claim you are referring to. You made the claim which Mr. Pat is referring to. Don't confuse the two. But, feel free to keep taking the NT out of context. God still loves you.

jefft01 wrote:

Mr Pat wrote: And do your research, everything Jesus taught was peace. You made the claim that if people followed the NT (you know the one that talks about Jesus) that people would commit a lot more atrocities and violence, which goes agaist completely everything Jesus taught.

As for me researching your claim, that's your job. You don't make a claim and tell someone to look it up for you. Especially where I can point to Jesus' whole ministry and show you examples of how He teaches peace.

Someone else actually made the claim that following the NT would make the world a better place.

The NT is all about Jesus, and if people took his teachings and followed them, yes, the world would be a much better place.

This goes for Christians too, many Christians don't exactly follow Jesus' teachings all that well, especially the "judge not lest ye be judged" part.

jmog wrote:

jefft01 wrote:

Mr Pat wrote: And do your research, everything Jesus taught was peace. You made the claim that if people followed the NT (you know the one that talks about Jesus) that people would commit a lot more atrocities and violence, which goes agaist completely everything Jesus taught.

As for me researching your claim, that's your job. You don't make a claim and tell someone to look it up for you. Especially where I can point to Jesus' whole ministry and show you examples of how He teaches peace.

Someone else actually made the claim that following the NT would make the world a better place.

The NT is all about Jesus, and if people took his teachings and followed them, yes, the world would be a much better place.

This goes for Christians too, many Christians don't exactly follow Jesus' teachings all that well, especially the "judge not lest ye be judged" part.

...and we are all sinners too.

jmog wrote:

sleeper wrote:

Can you prove that?

Coming from the guy who "knows" society would have developed similar laws to what we have if religion never existed...interesting.

LOL

Yeah, because if laws were ever created people would be okay with others going around whacking people. Something tells me you're a moron, and also a believer, coincidence?

In what context would this teaching make the world a better place?
Matthew
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Would it be the same context that this is good in?
Matthew
13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Sounds really peaceful to me.

Jmog, completely agree, people of all shapes, sizes, creeds, and colors are not perfect.

sleeper wrote: LOL

Yeah, because if laws were ever created people would be okay with others going around whacking people. Something tells me you're a moron, and also a believer, coincidence?

Ah, the ad hominem logical "proof", if you can't disprove someone, just call them a moron so their statement has to be false.

You ask someone to provide proof for a statement they made when you have stated a few times on this thread that you KNOW that our laws would have been the same regardless if there was ever a religious influence or not.

You seem to neglect the fact that our forefathers wrote documents like the Declaration of Independence that talked about everyone being endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. Those same rights, that our country still base laws off of, are NOT seen as "rights" around the world in different cultures, but they are similar to the moral standards of the Judeo-Christian Bible.

I'd love to compare intelligence with you by any measure you like, IQ, ACT, SAT, GRE, etc but I'm afraid you might be ill equiped.