believer wrote:

Please spare me the "right-wing propaganda" bullshit. Hispanics will vote for Dems if and when they are granted amnesty which is precisely why the Dems are pushing it.

However, I will admit that while the Republicans talk tough on blocking illegal immigration, in reality they know full well that much of there own political support comes from the some of the very businesses that rely on the cheap illegal labor so I digress!

This is a real problem for both parties. Maybe the wise and politically astute Libertarians have all the answers? You seem to think so.

I'm not 100% sold that Hispanics are in the D camp. Generally, on social issues they are conservative, and I can see them being split down the middle depending on what issue dominates. Take for example Prop 8 in Cali.

ptown_trojans_1 wrote: I'm not 100% sold that Hispanics are in the D camp. Generally, on social issues they are conservative, and I can see them being split down the middle depending on what issue dominates. Take for example Prop 8 in Cali.

I agree that many Hispanics lean conservative on social issues. But many will sell those out to someone who promises them some sort of financial support for themselves and their families. I don't blame them. I would do the same thing if my government did not offer me the same opportunities we have here.

That being said we can't take care of everyone in the world nor provide them with the same opportunities we have here. We have laws in place to make sure we do not erode the opportunites we have for the citizens of the United States and yet still offer them to as many around the world as possible. Those that violate the laws, for whatever noble reason, and as a result harm the opportunities of others, should not be granted amnesty.

believer wrote:

Footwedge wrote:Again, I'm not trying to pick on you. But your post here reflects the manipulative powers of the radical right winged news sources, that disturbingly distorts facts in order to stir up the lemmings into belieiving utter bullshit propaganda.

Sorry FW...I don't get my "marching orders" from Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. Nice try though.

Then where exactly did you get your disinformation from? I cited 3 things that you choose to ignore. Did you read it somewhere? Because what you spewed is BS.

My political views are based on my own political common-sense, personal observation, and 30+ years of being keenly interested in the political events around me. You can state "facts" and then follow it up with the word "probably" all you want but Hispanics overwhelmingly vote Democrat...period.

No they don't. You actually think that all non whites vote Democratic? That's how I interpret your statement here.

Please spare me the "right-wing propaganda" bullshit. Hispanics will vote for Dems if and when they are granted amnesty which is precisely why the Dems are pushing it.

Then source it. Where are you getting your info from? I called you out. Isn't that the rule here? Or are you simply offering your opinion?

The fact is...this rhetoric is nonsensical.

However, I will admit that while the Republicans talk tough on blocking illegal immigration, in reality they know full well that much of there own political support comes from the some of the very businesses that rely on the cheap illegal labor so I digress!

Yet these illegal aliens will all vote Democrat...OK.

This is a real problem for both parties. Maybe the wise and politically astute Libertarians have all the answers? You seem to think so.

Nice parting shot, dude. I never said I have all the answers. Just like you, I post my opinions. If I have facts to back them up, I post them.

And...the libertarian viewpoint does not allign with some of the things that I believe in. Libertarians disagree 100% regarding fair trade policies. I sincerely doubt that the libertarian party would accept my membership.

Here is an article for Believer, or anyone else to read....regarding the Hispanic American voting pattern from the last election.

one excerpt...

"There has been too much of an anti-immigrant tone," says Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart, R-Fla., a Cuban immigrant. He argues that Hispanics are "a natural" Republican constituency because they are entrepreneurial and socially conservative. But Diaz-Balart adds, "When people start to perceive that immigrants are being put in the same category as a threat to national security, it's hard to get your message across."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2006/2006-11-09-hispanics_x.htm

^^^FW...Hispanics may fit the conservative mold in terms of entrepreneurial spirit and social beliefs, but they still vote overwhelmingly for Democrats. It's perplexing but true.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/05/conservative_republican_values.html

(Gallup Poll) PRINCETON, NJ -- According to the latest CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, conducted October 3-6, Americans who identify themselves as "Hispanic" show a decided preference for the Democratic Party -- both in party affiliation and in their intended vote in November.

PHOENIX (Reuters) - U.S. Hispanics turned out in force to vote for Democrat Barack Obama on Tuesday, contributing to his wins in key battleground states in the Southwest and Florida, exit polls showed.

A CNN national exit poll found that 66 percent of Latinos voted for Sen. Obama, who is poised to become the first black president in U.S. history, with 32 percent supporting his Republican rival, John McCain, an Arizona senator.

A new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll indicates that Hispanics, by nearly 3 to 1, say they're Democrats or lean that way

CenterBHSFan wrote: 1. Illegals are not taking any jobs from Americans. The jobs that the illegals do, are the jobs that 99% of Americans don't want to do.
Just try to guess how many Americans apply for dishwasher jobs in California. (not that many)
Just try to imagine how many Americans a farm can get to pick garlic in Gilroy, Ca.. (not many)
It's just not as easy as saying that they're taking our jobs. Americans are spoiled. They have this idea and a false sense of security about a "standard" of living. Look around. How many people can you see that will sit on unemployment until it runs out rather than take a job or two that they consider beneath them?

2. I have a tough time dealing with the thought of an America with closed borders. I think that by doing that, we fence ourselves in and ruin everything that America stands for.
But in the meantime, I don't think we should just give them amnesty for nothing. Not when there are many people from around the world who have been going through the correct procedures to become an American legally and have been standing in line for years. Not when those same people want to bring their families here, work here, spend all their money here, pay taxes here, buy a house here, and basically assimilate theirselves into American life.
THOSE people shoule always come first!
For as big as this government is, and in the age of computers, there is no damn good reason for people to have to wait years to legally become American.

CenterBHSFan said it beatifully. We are not and never have been a nation of walls and machine gun turrets and the like. countries like that usually end up building walls to keep their own citizens in rather than protecting against enemies from outside. He is also correct about the kind of jobs that those immigrants get. I wouldn't do those jobs and I don't know anyone in my circle of friends and acquaintances that would. Issues like this remind me of my first experience in an Ohio grade school. I was the new kid in the third grade and I was scared to death, coming from a private school in Virginia (because my father had a real affinity for the "N" word). there were only around 30 students in the whole school and now I was dumped into a single class nearly that big by itself. one little boy signaled for me to come and sit next to him. His name was Joe and he was Mexican . I found out a little later that his family had been a migrant family that came up from Mexico every harvest season and eventually, through hard work and perserverance, came to this country and finally all became legal citizens of the US. Later I always thought that he had reached out to me because he recognized that "all alone" feeling. He remained one of my best friends throughout elementary school and his family is still here in town, 55 years later. I have a real problem faulting people for seeking something better for themselves and their children, although these folks were legal immigrants from the beginning. What would you do if in a similar situation?
I don't really have a set answer for the problems of illegal immigration, but I would hope that we would have a better plan than building a wall.

believer wrote: ^^^FW...Hispanics may fit the conservative mold in terms of entrepreneurial spirit and social beliefs, but they still vote overwhelmingly for Democrats. It's perplexing but true.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/05/conservative_republican_values.html

(Gallup Poll) PRINCETON, NJ -- According to the latest CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, conducted October 3-6, Americans who identify themselves as "Hispanic" show a decided preference for the Democratic Party -- both in party affiliation and in their intended vote in November.

PHOENIX (Reuters) - U.S. Hispanics turned out in force to vote for Democrat Barack Obama on Tuesday, contributing to his wins in key battleground states in the Southwest and Florida, exit polls showed.

A CNN national exit poll found that 66 percent of Latinos voted for Sen. Obama, who is poised to become the first black president in U.S. history, with 32 percent supporting his Republican rival, John McCain, an Arizona senator.

A new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll indicates that Hispanics, by nearly 3 to 1, say they're Democrats or lean that way

Read the link I provided Believer. Read it. It explains why the Latin American voted went from 44% (hardly a "mandate" in voting for one party) versus last year's election of 29%.

Since you probably won't read it...Latin Ameericans voted 44% for the GOP in 04. 44%. But somehow you think that 56%==100% Democrat.

The decline in 08 had to do with the harsh rhetoric towards their people, mainly from the right wing....Hannity, Rush, the Weekly Standard, National Review, et smell.

Swamp Fox wrote:

CenterBHSFan wrote: 1. Illegals are not taking any jobs from Americans. The jobs that the illegals do, are the jobs that 99% of Americans don't want to do.
Just try to guess how many Americans apply for dishwasher jobs in California. (not that many)
Just try to imagine how many Americans a farm can get to pick garlic in Gilroy, Ca.. (not many)
It's just not as easy as saying that they're taking our jobs. Americans are spoiled. They have this idea and a false sense of security about a "standard" of living. Look around. How many people can you see that will sit on unemployment until it runs out rather than take a job or two that they consider beneath them?

2. I have a tough time dealing with the thought of an America with closed borders. I think that by doing that, we fence ourselves in and ruin everything that America stands for.
But in the meantime, I don't think we should just give them amnesty for nothing. Not when there are many people from around the world who have been going through the correct procedures to become an American legally and have been standing in line for years. Not when those same people want to bring their families here, work here, spend all their money here, pay taxes here, buy a house here, and basically assimilate theirselves into American life.
THOSE people shoule always come first!
For as big as this government is, and in the age of computers, there is no damn good reason for people to have to wait years to legally become American.

CenterBHSFan said it beatifully. We are not and never have been a nation of walls and machine gun turrets and the like. countries like that usually end up building walls to keep their own citizens in rather than protecting against enemies from outside. He is also correct about the kind of jobs that those immigrants get. I wouldn't do those jobs and I don't know anyone in my circle of friends and acquaintances that would. Issues like this remind me of my first experience in an Ohio grade school. I was the new kid in the third grade and I was scared to death, coming from a private school in Virginia (because my father had a real affinity for the "N" word). there were only around 30 students in the whole school and now I was dumped into a single class nearly that big by itself. one little boy signaled for me to come and sit next to him. His name was Joe and he was Mexican . I found out a little later that his family had been a migrant family that came up from Mexico every harvest season and eventually, through hard work and perserverance, came to this country and finally all became legal citizens of the US. Later I always thought that he had reached out to me because he recognized that "all alone" feeling. He remained one of my best friends throughout elementary school and his family is still here in town, 55 years later. I have a real problem faulting people for seeking something better for themselves and their children, although these folks were legal immigrants from the beginning. What would you do if in a similar situation?
I don't really have a set answer for the problems of illegal immigration, but I would hope that we would have a better plan than building a wall.

These are the best two posts on this thread. I agree with both of you...

I don't see why a solid, controlled border has to imply a closed border or a negative attitude towards immigration. Please, please, come in. Just come in through this gate, get an ID Card and a Tax I.D. Number and an email address that we can reach you at. Here's a list of employer's, etc. To me, it shouldn't be all that much harder than getting your ticket and paying your toll on the turnpike. You want on the turnpike, fine, great, wonderful, just get a ticket and go through a proper toll booth. I realize that's a simplification.

I mean, when I was in the Navy, I met immigrants who had joined to earn their citizenship faster. Granted, there are arguments to be made about making the naturalization process shorter and simpler, but the point is, illegally immigrating undermines these folks who do it the right way and go that extra mile.

Footwedge wrote:
Since you probably won't read it...Latin Ameericans voted 44% for the GOP in 04. 44%. But somehow you think that 56%==100% Democrat.

To those in politics, 55% is considered to be the bottom end of a landslide. You have made the other side's point for them. A grownup would admit it and move on. Instead, you are likely to produce an overly verbose defense of your indefensible position, replete with some combination of grammatical errors, opinions misclassified as fact, and outright misstatements of fact.

Footwedge wrote:The decline in 08 had to do with the harsh rhetoric towards their people, mainly from the right wing....Hannity, Rush, the Weekly Standard, National Review, et smell.

"Harsh rhetoric towards their people?" Very misleading statement FW.

NOT towards the people...Harsh rhetoric towards AMERICAN leftist politicians who refuse to secure our borders perhaps.

That may "smell" to you but it's TRUTH to right thinking Americans.

Is is too much to ask - no DEMAND - that our politicians secure our borders and require illegals to enter the U.S. - I dunno - LEGALLY?

Even "lib"ertarians like yourself ought to be on-board with that.

Diversity - I love it!

Immigration built this country so I have no problem with it. However illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be solved, the US can't afford all of these people who aren't paying taxes. Therefore if we catch an illegal immigrant we give them two options, become a legal US citizen with all the processes and responsibilities that entails or go back home. Simple as that.

Fat Hobbit... I like your picture, and I agree with it. We can't stop immigrants from coming to this country. That is not the basis upon which we are founded.

However... ILLEGAL immigration is not the basis on which we are founded. "Give us your tired, your weak" ... as long as they are willing to pay our taxes, and do what it takes to gain citizenship!

ernest_t_bass wrote: Fat Hobbit... I like your picture, and I agree with it. We can't stop immigrants from coming to this country. That is not the basis upon which we are founded.

However... ILLEGAL immigration is not the basis on which we are founded. "Give us your tired, your weak" ... as long as they are willing to pay our taxes, and do what it takes to gain citizenship!

The pic doesn't really apply to this thread (Illegal immigration) but it does go along with a couple of good posts here. Plus I really like it.

The characteristic I like most about the immigrants that I know is that they are very willing to work and appreciative of all the things this country has to offer.

I do think offering amnesty to illegals is a big slap in the face to everyone who is waiting in line and going through legal chanels to be a US citizen.

But I don't know how much tax money we're losing because of illegal immigration. I would be willing to bet it's pretty small compared to how much of our money our elected officials waste. IMHO it's not a major issue.

Bump... why not.

krazie45 wrote: Immigration built this country so I have no problem with it. However illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be solved, the US can't afford all of these people who aren't paying taxes. Therefore if we catch an illegal immigrant we give them two options, become a legal US citizen with all the processes and responsibilities that entails or go back home. Simple as that.

This.

believer wrote:

Footwedge wrote:The decline in 08 had to do with the harsh rhetoric towards their people, mainly from the right wing....Hannity, Rush, the Weekly Standard, National Review, et smell.

"Harsh rhetoric towards their people?" Very misleading statement FW.

NOT towards the people...Harsh rhetoric towards AMERICAN leftist politicians who refuse to secure our borders perhaps.

That may "smell" to you but it's TRUTH to right thinking Americans.

Is is too much to ask - no DEMAND - that our politicians secure our borders and require illegals to enter the U.S. - I dunno - LEGALLY?

Even "lib"ertarians like yourself ought to be on-board with that.

Leftists refuse to secure our borders? Haven't we been through this several times before?

The left have their agenda for keeping the borders open. The right have their own agenda for keeping these same borders open.

The illegal immigration escalation coincided with the passage of NAFTA....under Clintron and the GOP's control of the House and Senate.

To somehow suggest that America turns a blind eye towards illegal immigrants because of leftists....is a fuggin joke.

But given that the AM dial is loaded with right winged malcontents, it's not surprising that the far right wingers actually believe this nonsense.

Granted this article is a little old. But this topic reminded me of the whole North American Union conspiracy

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003713518_rumor19.html

IMO both democrats and republicans have a lot to gain from illegal immigration and nothing will really be done about it until we can get some new blood in government at all levels.