Do we keep them (illegals) here and promote amnesty? Do we ship them back to their (illegals) home country, only to have them (illegals) come right back, wasting our tax dollars? Do we build a fence?

I'm for building a very large fence, starting with our Southern border (b/c it's already started). However, you have to have an efficient way of getting rid of all the illegals that are here. I believe that has to be the toughest part.

The part that I don't like about this whole debate, is the inflated numbers that you see when they say how much it will cost. To build a fence, it will cost around $1 million per mile, things like that. How in the hell does it cost that much, seriously?

I am not against immigration, but I am completely against illegal immigrants taking jobs away from our unemployed, and businesses profiting off it.

What say you?

Any amnesty that we give to the current illegals will only make even more pour across our southern border. If anyone wants to even think about amnesty, we need to seriously secure our borders first. It does no good to give amnesty to 10-13 million illegals if we'll have the same freaking problem 10-20 years from now.

And to answer your question, it costs that much because it is the government. You could get a private company to do it for much less, but the government always will cost more.

tk421 wrote:And to answer your question, it costs that much because it is the government. You could get a private company to do it for much less, but the government always will cost more.

Agreed... I guess my question was more rhetorical. But I agree, completely.

1. Illegals are not taking any jobs from Americans. The jobs that the illegals do, are the jobs that 99% of Americans don't want to do.
Just try to guess how many Americans apply for dishwasher jobs in California. (not that many)
Just try to imagine how many Americans a farm can get to pick garlic in Gilroy, Ca.. (not many)
It's just not as easy as saying that they're taking our jobs. Americans are spoiled. They have this idea and a false sense of security about a "standard" of living. Look around. How many people can you see that will sit on unemployment until it runs out rather than take a job or two that they consider beneath them?

2. I have a tough time dealing with the thought of an America with closed borders. I think that by doing that, we fence ourselves in and ruin everything that America stands for.
But in the meantime, I don't think we should just give them amnesty for nothing. Not when there are many people from around the world who have been going through the correct procedures to become an American legally and have been standing in line for years. Not when those same people want to bring their families here, work here, spend all their money here, pay taxes here, buy a house here, and basically assimilate theirselves into American life.
THOSE people shoule always come first!
For as big as this government is, and in the age of computers, there is no damn good reason for people to have to wait years to legally become American.

Illegals take these jobs because they are illegally provided by employers, paying below minimum wage. Have you ever seen "Dirty Jobs?" Yeah, there are so many jobs that "Americans won't do." Take the jobs away from the illegals, open the job up to citizens, and see what happens. Seriously, see what happens.

With so many people out of work, I can tell you what would happen.

When we "fence our selves in" we are protecting ourselves, and our "laws." We're not saying that we will not accept them. We're saying to "become a citizen first" or at least get working privileges.

The funny thing is, in a few years we'll be low on workers and inviting in the same people we're now trying to keep out...

CenterBHSFan wrote: 1. Illegals are not taking any jobs from Americans. The jobs that the illegals do, are the jobs that 99% of Americans don't want to do.
Just try to guess how many Americans apply for dishwasher jobs in California. (not that many)
Just try to imagine how many Americans a farm can get to pick garlic in Gilroy, Ca.. (not many)
It's just not as easy as saying that they're taking our jobs. Americans are spoiled. They have this idea and a false sense of security about a "standard" of living. Look around. How many people can you see that will sit on unemployment until it runs out rather than take a job or two that they consider beneath them?

2. I have a tough time dealing with the thought of an America with closed borders. I think that by doing that, we fence ourselves in and ruin everything that America stands for.
But in the meantime, I don't think we should just give them amnesty for nothing. Not when there are many people from around the world who have been going through the correct procedures to become an American legally and have been standing in line for years. Not when those same people want to bring their families here, work here, spend all their money here, pay taxes here, buy a house here, and basically assimilate theirselves into American life.
THOSE people shoule always come first!
For as big as this government is, and in the age of computers, there is no damn good reason for people to have to wait years to legally become American.

I agree that we americans have been spoiled with the jobs we have. however i think if we take the illegals out the equation, eventually in this economy, americans will suck it up and take the job that they normally wouldnt have done. maybe not over night this will happen, but in time.

Strapping Young Lad wrote: The funny thing is, in a few years we'll be low on workers and inviting in the same people we're now trying to keep out...

Yes, but when that happens, they are "documented," and they are here on OUR account.

Strapping Young Lad wrote: The funny thing is, in a few years we'll be low on workers and inviting in the same people we're now trying to keep out...

And I would also guess that most Americans, in today's economy, can't foresee this happening any time soon.

Shutting down borders is a poor idea. Especially considering how we came to be a nation.

ernest_t_bass wrote: Illegals take these jobs because they are illegally provided by employers, paying below minimum wage. Have you ever seen "Dirty Jobs?" Yeah, there are so many jobs that "Americans won't do." Take the jobs away from the illegals, open the job up to citizens, and see what happens. Seriously, see what happens.
With so many people out of work, I can tell you what would happen.

I can only speak from direct experience, Ernest. When i lived in Ca., I helped open up a restaurant (2 actually) and when it came time to hire employees, put an ad in the paper and on local posting sites. Guess how many Americans (pick your ethnicity) applied for the dishwashing job?
N.O.N.E. pinche nada.
And then I had to have the lawyer/friend go through work visas with me just to be sure that I didn't inadvertantly hire somebody with a fake.

Another time I went down to Gilroy, Ca. to a garlic festival for the restaurant and got to talking to one of the farmers. He had the same problems not getting Americans to want to work for him.

Now, I'm not saying those are the only situations like that "out there". Dirty Jobs notwithstanding, those shows can't cover everything.

Perhpas what Glory Days said might be right. In the future, people can get Americans to take those sorts of jobs, but as of right now, it's still beneath their standards.

CenterBHSFan wrote: And then I had to have the lawyer/friend go through work visas with me just to be sure that I didn't inadvertantly hire somebody with a fake.

See, right there... you did it the right way, though. Many (MANY) businesses will illegally hire the illegals, and pay them under the minimum wage, so it is the businesses fault, just as much as it is everyone else combined.

I Wear Pants wrote: Shutting down borders is a poor idea. Especially considering how we came to be a nation.

If businesses followed regulations like they were supposed to then I wouldn't see this as much of a problem.

Never grant amnesty. I am for sending back any one that gets arrested for anything. Amnesty would cost the government even more money then they leach off of it as it is. We need to seriously secure our border.

If anyone from Mexico can waltz into this country, what's stopping some terrorist nutcase from bringing something into this country? Nothing. We need to secure our borders, especially the southern. The border patrol, I'm sure, does a great job but there aren't enough of them.

^^That's what I'm wondering. How long til our next terrorist attack???

ernest_t_bass wrote:

I Wear Pants wrote: Shutting down borders is a poor idea. Especially considering how we came to be a nation.

If businesses followed regulations like they were supposed to then I wouldn't see this as much of a problem.

True, but building a fence doesn't provide anymore of an incentive for businesses to follow the rules.

Grant amnesty to all current "illegals" in the United States. Might not be ideal, but is pretty much the only viable option, at this point. "Rounding them up" and sending them back is just not feasible.

Tighten up the borders after that, no one to blame for the "problem" but ourselves.

But don't close them, don't EVER close them. Would be a fatal blow to what America stands for, more so than what many believe Obama to be doing to what it means to be "American."

tk421 wrote: If anyone from Mexico can waltz into this country, what's stopping some terrorist nutcase from bringing something into this country? Nothing. We need to secure our borders, especially the southern. The border patrol, I'm sure, does a great job but there aren't enough of them.

Strapping Young Lad wrote: ^^That's what I'm wondering. How long til our next terrorist attack???

I've wondered why we haven't seen more terrorists coming from the south. If our borders are so porous, it would be easy. But, that begs the question, perhaps the terrorist organizations are so limited on power extension that perhaps they do not have the capability to go through the border? Perhaps the war in Afghanistan has decentralized, and hampered al Qaeda's ability?
It is some questions to ask and the answers are unknown, but the longer time goes by the more and more it looks like the terrorists simply do not have the capability to conduct operations coming into the country.


As to the original question: I'm for a speedy program that grants citizenship to people, and that if you have been in the country for x amount of years, you can chose a quicker option to become a citizen. Amnesty is not a good idea, but neither is shipping them all back to their home country, so they can come back and we have to ship them back again. I'm for securing and beefing up the border, but knowing that it will never be perfect, nor will stop people from coming over.

cbus4life wrote: But don't close them, don't EVER close them. Would be a fatal blow to what America stands for, more so than what many believe Obama to be doing to what it means to be "American."

i dont think anyone is against stopping LEGAL immigration. you can still close the borders and allow people legally into the country.

ptown_trojans_1 wrote: I've wondered why we haven't seen more terrorists coming from the south. If our borders are so porous, it would be easy. But, that begs the question, perhaps the terrorist organizations are so limited on power extension that perhaps they do not have the capability to go through the border? Perhaps the war in Afghanistan has decentralized, and hampered al Qaeda's ability?
It is some questions to ask and the answers are unknown, but the longer time goes by the more and more it looks like the terrorists simply do not have the capability to conduct operations coming into the country.

thats why i wonder why people want to pull out troops out. why not fight them there and keep them occupied in their own country. the best defense is a good offense theory.

I Wear Pants wrote:

ernest_t_bass wrote:

I Wear Pants wrote: Shutting down borders is a poor idea. Especially considering how we came to be a nation.

If businesses followed regulations like they were supposed to then I wouldn't see this as much of a problem.

True, but building a fence doesn't provide anymore of an incentive for businesses to follow the rules.

If the illegals are out, and they have to hire either a citizen, or someone on permit, then they have to follow FLSA. They can no longer hire at below minimum wage.

cbus4life wrote:Tighten up the borders after that, no one to blame for the "problem" but ourselves.

But don't close them, don't EVER close them.

I don't think "closing" them is the answer, or even an option. Just because you put a fence up, doesn't mean you're "closing" the borders. I don't see how putting up a fence goes against what we "stand" for.

do you really think that a fence is going to stop people from sneaking in? How deep, how high, how strong are you going to build a thousand mile fence?

Build a minefield with a fair warning posted....If they make it in CONGRATS.