HitsRus wrote: do you really think that a fence is going to stop people from sneaking in? How deep, how high, how strong are you going to build a thousand mile fence?

thats easy. put up signs along the border thay say "Welcome to Mexico". little bit of reverse psychology and confusion should do the trick.

ernest_t_bass wrote:

I Wear Pants wrote:

ernest_t_bass wrote:

I Wear Pants wrote: Shutting down borders is a poor idea. Especially considering how we came to be a nation.

If businesses followed regulations like they were supposed to then I wouldn't see this as much of a problem.

True, but building a fence doesn't provide anymore of an incentive for businesses to follow the rules.

If the illegals are out, and they have to hire either a citizen, or someone on permit, then they have to follow FLSA. They can no longer hire at below minimum wage.

But building a fence doesn't get rid of illegals. Nor will it stop them.

^^^^
Yes, but hopefully, it will make it tougher to just walk right into the United States. Put it this way... if you left it to the private sector to build a fence that no one could cross... it would get done.

What I suggest... Two 15-20 foot high fences. 10 fee apart. In between those fences, you place coils and coils of barbed wire.

I've scanned down through these posts and one theme that keeps popping up is the fact that Americans are spoiled and won't do the menial jobs illegals are willing to tackle.

While it is true that illegals will do jobs that Americans will refuse to do, it's not because Americans are spoiled necessarily. It's because we have developed an entitlement mentality in this country and have created a generous welfare system that encourages people to stay at home as opposed to harvesting garlic for farm owners in Gilroy, CA.

You want Americans to do menial jobs that will choke-off the work available for illegals then let's re-think our welfare system.

Since welfare is a given how about we channel some of the welfare tax-revenue streams directly to child care and tax breaks to the employers to assist with employee benefits packages as starters?

We're going to need to help employers of "menial labor" jobs anyway once ObamaKare kicks in or these employers are going to clamor for more illegal labor.

- Swift and Co. meat-processing plants lost about 9% of their workforce when they were raided in six states. After the raids, Swift raised their pay by almost two dollars an hour and, and hundreds of residents lined up the next day to take the jobs illegals used to have.

- Howard Industries, an electronics maker in Laurel, Mississippi, was raided in the fall of 2008. Hundreds of citizens soon lined up to apply for the new job opportunities, including one woman who drove 40 miles.

- Crider Inc, a chicken-processing company in Stillmore, Georgia, suddenly raised their pay to more than a dollar an hour over what they were paying illegals. About 400 unemployed people showed up for interviews, half of whom were subsequently hired.


When fair jobs become available (FAIR), Americans line up to do them.


FAIR!

I think they ought to make it easier to immigrate legally...but am seriously for a huge, great wall of America...if the Chinese could do it back in the day, we could do it. But, I think it has to come with a system of fair, lenient, legal immigration. Let the people come in, just don't let them do it in the dead of night without a Tax I.D. number, etc. etc.

Not just a fence, but a wall of the likes of Constantinople.

Let me clarify...I think the U.S. is essentially luring illegal immigrants and I'm sure if I were in those shoes, if it's easier to immigrate without going through the hoops and the bells and whistles, I'm sure I would do that. Hence, I think the ability to take that easy road ought to be discouraged and the more difficult road of legal immigration made easier.

For illegals already in the border...don't round em up on throw them out. Forgive them for taking a short cut and help them go through a proper immigration process now.

1- Build the wall.
2- Grant the millions in here a road to citizenship.
3- Tell Mexico that we will charge them the cost of booking and returning their emigrates. Once they say that's ludicrous, we threaten to end NAFTA. Mexico suddenly shores up their northern border and quits (or at least limits) the support for our immigrant problem.

iclfan2 wrote: Never grant amnesty. I am for sending back any one that gets arrested for anything. Amnesty would cost the government even more money then they leach off of it as it is. We need to seriously secure our border.

Amnesty would cost more money than rounding up all the citizens who are still leeching off the system? I fail to see how that could be true.


Make them citizens, make them pay taxes, and they will be like every other citizen. Amnesty is the only answer to this problem, and then lock down the borders.

There is a reason Americans are continually distracted from the immigration issue despite a half ass attempt by Bush to act like he cared.

eersandbeers wrote:There is a reason Americans are continually distracted from the immigration issue despite a half ass attempt by Bush to act like he cared.

Half assed attempts are better then no assed attempts.

eersandbeers wrote:

iclfan2 wrote: Never grant amnesty. I am for sending back any one that gets arrested for anything. Amnesty would cost the government even more money then they leach off of it as it is. We need to seriously secure our border.

Amnesty would cost more money than rounding up all the citizens who are still leeching off the system? I fail to see how that could be true.


Make them citizens, make them pay taxes, and they will be like every other citizen. Amnesty is the only answer to this problem, and then lock down the borders.

There is a reason Americans are continually distracted from the immigration issue despite a half ass attempt by Bush to act like he cared.

No that isn't what I was saying, granting amnesty will cost more then them leaching off the system as they do now. Granting amnesty is a horrible idea. And they are not like every other citizen, they don't come to this country and assimilate. Also, many that come are criminals, and the MExican government encourages it. We need to get serious about border patrol, especially because of terrorism.

I think alot of you are forgetting something.

Granting amnesty to the illegals in this country - say today- would be a fruitless endeavor. Those new Americans would still sneak back into their country to see their families. They would still spend as little as they possibly could here in the US because they will still send the majority of their money back to their families.
Granting automatic amnesty would not accomplish anything, except to give a political push to whoever pushes it hard enough.

CenterBHSFan wrote:Granting automatic amnesty would not accomplish anything, except to give a political push to whoever pushes it hard enough.

Wrong. The Democrats have everything to gain by granting amnesty. Why? Because a vast majority of the 13 million illegals would vote Democrat.

If there's "political push" it'll be to the left.

Believer, who's pushing it the hardest right now?
I think we can agree!

believer wrote:

eersandbeers wrote:There is a reason Americans are continually distracted from the immigration issue despite a half ass attempt by Bush to act like he cared.

Half assed attempts are better then no assed attempts.

I don't believe so. Half assed attempts leave the problem in tact, but spend millions on something that isn't really the solution.

iclfan2 wrote:
No that isn't what I was saying, granting amnesty will cost more then them leaching off the system as they do now. Granting amnesty is a horrible idea. And they are not like every other citizen, they don't come to this country and assimilate. Also, many that come are criminals, and the MExican government encourages it. We need to get serious about border patrol, especially because of terrorism.

How will more of them leach off the system if they are made citizens?

You are correct about the crime (you are also discounting socio-economic factors), but making them citizens may make some more apt to find jobs or go to school.

It should also be said that illegals play a vital role in many small town economies.

Land mines around the boarder or send them to Iraq and Afganistan. If they want to be here so bad, then they can go and fight for our country. If they come back alive, instant citizenship. If not....oh well.

eersandbeers wrote:

iclfan2 wrote:
No that isn't what I was saying, granting amnesty will cost more then them leaching off the system as they do now. Granting amnesty is a horrible idea. And they are not like every other citizen, they don't come to this country and assimilate. Also, many that come are criminals, and the MExican government encourages it. We need to get serious about border patrol, especially because of terrorism.

How will more of them leach off the system if they are made citizens?

You are correct about the crime (you are also discounting socio-economic factors), but making them citizens may make some more apt to find jobs or go to school.

It should also be said that illegals play a vital role in many small town economies.

If granted amnesty, they will be able to be on American programs like Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, unemployment, etc. The government already spends money on them but it would be even more money if granted amnesty. Horrible idea.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

The answer really is to make it easier for them to enter the country and work legally, while increasing the penalties for those who skirt the laws....including those who hire them. We are a nation of laws...not walls.

It isn't politically viable to deport these folks. So what I would do:

1. Real border security.
2. Cut legal immigration by 50 percent for 20 years - this is so we can absorb this wave of immigration, rather legal or not, that has come. This is still letting in excess of 500k per year and is very liberal by world standards.
3. Deny government subsidies to illegal aliens. Prosecute employers who knowingly hire illegals.
4. If a non-citizen under the control of another flag has a baby here, that baby is not an American citizen.
5. Implement a tough legalization policy. If any illegal commits a felony or serious misdemeanor, they are deported. The illegal alien must pay a penalty for breaking the law, take a citizenship test and learn English. No chain migration.

Mexico also encourages their citizens to come here because of their failed state. They give maps, help folks guide the illegals over and sometimes even have incurred our border with their military. I tell them this has to stop or we cut off relations with you and end NAFTA.

Yeah, I'm all for getting rid of the law that allows for anchor babies. If at least one parent isn't a citizen, the kid shouldn't be a citizen either.

bman618 wrote: Mexico also encourages their citizens to come here because of their failed state. They give maps, help folks guide the illegals over and sometimes even have incurred our border with their military. I tell them this has to stop or we cut off relations with you and end NAFTA.

The Mexican government is doing this?

Videos like this make it hard for me to say amnesty for all illegals...



If you come here to be an American than be an American. You destroyed your country don't destroy ours. I say south bound illegals will be escorted south and north bound illegals will be shot.

believer wrote:

CenterBHSFan wrote:Granting automatic amnesty would not accomplish anything, except to give a political push to whoever pushes it hard enough.

Wrong. The Democrats have everything to gain by granting amnesty. Why? Because a vast majority of the 13 million illegals would vote Democrat.

If there's "political push" it'll be to the left.

Believer, I'm not trying to pick on you, but these type of statements are simply falsehoods perpetuated by extreme right winged news sources that are playing another conspiracy card.

There are unequivecably 2 political motivations for allowing illegal immigration. The right turns a blind eye to the situation, becauses it allows business owners the means to circumvent minimum wage laws. The left has "some" political leanings towards illegals from a human rights perspective.

The National Review, the Weekly Standard, Rush Limbaugh and probably the WSJ all push this crap that this illegal alien problem is a left winged subterfuge job. Well if one looks at the facts, instead of just gulping down right winged talking points, one would analize through facts and statistics, that the idea that these immigrants would automatically vote Dem, is hog doo.

Fact #1. Probably over 90% of these illegals are Catholic. Catholics have voted as a block for the winning candidate for the last 8 elections or so. That means that the majority of Catholica voted for Reagan in 80 and 84, Bush 41 in 88, Clinton in 92 and 96, Bush 43 in 00 and 04...and the majority of Catholics (56%) voted Obama.

From these stats alone, your premise is thoroughly debunked.

Secondly, and just as importantly....these illegal aliens by and large are pioneering, enterprising, people with a strong work ethic, that at the peril of their health and life, choose to leave their homeland clandestinely, in order to improve the economics of themselves and their Mexican families. The minimum wage in Mexico is 49 pesos a day...which converts to around 55 cents an hour. My guess would be that these forward thinking "capitalists", if anything, would be more inclined to vote Republican, versus the so called "progressive" free handout Democratic party.

And thirdly, to further debunk the lunacy of the far right on "they will vote Dems". These workers are still in relative terms, fall into the category of very poor Americans. The fact is...the red states of Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Arkansas and the like are the poorest states in per capita income, yet they always vote Republican.

Conversely, the blue states of New England, California, New York and New Jersey, all fall on the upper crust of per capita income.

Again, I'm not trying to pick on you. But your post here reflects the manipulative powers of the radical right winged news sources, that disturbingly distorts facts in order to stir up the lemmings into belieiving their utter bullshit propaganda.

It's funny that we have no illegal alien problem from Canada. Oh wait, minimum wages are about 10% higher in Canada than in the US, depending on which province you live in.

Conversely, Mexican law has a minimum wage law set at appx. 1/10th of that what America has. In addition, Mexico has no provisions at all for Mexican employers to pay any OT pay either. Most Mexican workers have to work 48 hour weeks, or out the door they go. More shitting on labor rights to improve the margins of the corporations.

To be fair, Mexican Corporations are required to pay into their socialized health care system.

Footwedge wrote:Again, I'm not trying to pick on you. But your post here reflects the manipulative powers of the radical right winged news sources, that disturbingly distorts facts in order to stir up the lemmings into belieiving utter bullshit propaganda.

Sorry FW...I don't get my "marching orders" from Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. Nice try though.

My political views are based on my own political common-sense, personal observation, and 30+ years of being keenly interested in the political events around me. You can state "facts" and then follow it up with the word "probably" all you want but Hispanics overwhelmingly vote Democrat...period.

Please spare me the "right-wing propaganda" bullshit. Hispanics will vote for Dems if and when they are granted amnesty which is precisely why the Dems are pushing it.

However, I will admit that while the Republicans talk tough on blocking illegal immigration, in reality they know full well that much of there own political support comes from the some of the very businesses that rely on the cheap illegal labor so I digress!

This is a real problem for both parties. Maybe the wise and politically astute Libertarians have all the answers? You seem to think so.