Why do conservatives hate unions?

Libertarian/Conservatives often support the inviolability of the right to contract. As a general rule, people bargaining at arm's length ought to have their agreements enforced. An agreement between employees to bargain together is just like any other type of agreement. Subsequently, the agreement between to the employer and the employees who've agreed to bargain together, is also an agreement.

Why such a dislike for people agreeing to bargain together?

I'm not talking about Public-sector unions. Let's focus on private sector union's where the interests of shareholders are represented by management. I think it's clear that the conservatives on here have plenty of distaste for private-sector unions such as the UAW.

Since people are talking about why they hate people acting collectively in government, people acting collectively in corporations...let's hear why you hate people acting collectively in unions.

I don't hate unions. I am not a fan at all of union 'leadership' though, which sold more jobs down the tubes than any management group ever did. A union is basically an affront to the leaders of an organization, an immediate roadblock and obstacle between two groups that should not be two groups; they should be one group - on the same team, working together to compete against their real 'enemies': global competitors.

I see no real purpose for a union in today's day and age. They may have been needed in some respects a hundred years ago, but today they are simply a major nuisance and a hindrance to the nimbleness and cost effectiveness that global players must retain in order to survive. I would never invest in a venture if I thought my capital was going to be put at even further risk by archaic unionism ..............and many, many other people/entrepreneurs feel the same way.


PS --- no one here ever said they "hate people in government..."; we just hate BIG GOVERNMENT, period; and rightly so, it squelches individual liberty and limits economic freedom. I am continuously amused you don't agree.

I'm conservative and I don't hate unions. I do think they throttle quality workers under the guise of ensuring "fairness" for average/poor workers.

QuakerOats;1243286 wrote:... I would never invest in a venture if I thought my capital was going to be put at even further risk by archaic unionism ..............and many, many other people/entrepreneurs feel the same way.


...

Amen. I would close my business before I would work with organized labor.

Why can the OP not go a full sentence into a post wihout placing labels on people?

BoatShoes;1243272 wrote:... private sector union's where the interests of shareholders are represented by management....

Shareholders are only represented by another if they sign a proxy.

When a union isn't present the employee has direct representation. They represent themselves.

queencitybuckeye;1243290 wrote:Why can the OP not go a full sentence into a post wihout placing labels on people?

Oh give it a rest will you? Is it not generally true that libertarians think contract rights are more important than other rights whereas a liberal traditionally thinks there are some other rights that might supervene on a right to contract? C'mon. I was just trying to set up the discussion...if we're even capable of having one on here.

I titled it "why do you hate unions" as a play on the other two threads...didn't mean to suggest conservatives have genuine, burning hate for unions.

Unions are still needed today. Working for a union shop in UPS and having friends at Toledo Edison and SunOil Refinery I'll tell you right now they are the only reason why people can keep those jobs. Firstly these companies will push and push you to achieve maximum productivity but when you're doing manual labor it's not hard to get hurt. IMO unions not only provide proper compensation for people in these positions (making 190 stops a day, climbing up an electrical line or making sure oil is refined in a safe manner so entire towns aren't blown up) but also make things safer. I've seen too many people in an absolute rush on the clock because they want to please management and I've seen them get hurt

I have no problem with people if they want to form a union or join a union
Forced participation is another story. I think the original purpose of unions were great.

I feel there are laws in place that make 90% of why unions originally were created no longer needed

Conservatives don't hate unions.

We don't like PUBLIC unions because of the obvious conflict of interest.

We typically don't like forced union membership.

After that if people want to join a union have at it.

I do believe unions were needed for a long time but honestly are not needed anymore. However that is just my opinion so people can join a union if they want.

Oh, and Classyposter's post looks like it was copy and pasted right out of a union propaganda news letter. Having worked for many years around a lot of places that are union and many that are non-union the safety concerns he mentions we're true decades ago but not true now with OSHA regulations.

I think a reason most people don't "voluntarily" join a union is because for decent workers they don't see the return on investment from their union dues. They give-up too much protecting the jobs of the bottom feeders. Having seen directly how unions operate, I doubt many people realize how they are subsidizing people who don't deserve the job. Pay and safety grievances sold out to save a guy fired for the 3rd time for being drunk on the job. Lower wages in exchange for reducing or avoiding job cuts.

In today's workplace, I really don't see the attraction for an above average worker to join a union. Collective bargaining, by its nature, transfers value from the good workers to the slackers.

I don't have a problem with unions, but I don't think people should be strong-armed and misled as to what they are signing-up for.

Classyposter58;1243322 wrote:Unions are still needed today. Working for a union shop in UPS and having friends at Toledo Edison and SunOil Refinery I'll tell you right now they are the only reason why people can keep those jobs. Firstly these companies will push and push you to achieve maximum productivity but when you're doing manual labor it's not hard to get hurt. IMO unions not only provide proper compensation for people in these positions (making 190 stops a day, climbing up an electrical line or making sure oil is refined in a safe manner so entire towns aren't blown up) but also make things safer. I've seen too many people in an absolute rush on the clock because they want to please management and I've seen them get hurt

I worked for UPS in college and was in the union. This is why I hate unions.

I do not hate unions, just don't see a need for them in most cases. Yes, in heavy manual labor sectors, perhaps, but if that is the case, they need to clean up the leadership.

So to answer your question Boat, It seems most libertarians/conservatives on here

1. Dont hate Unions
2. Think people can join if they want
3. Shouldnt be forced to join a union to keep/get a job
4. Dont think they are as necessary today as they were 50-100 years ago

I think that about sums it up.

pmoney25;1243585 wrote:So to answer your question Boat, It seems most libertarians/conservatives on here

1. Dont hate Unions
2. Think people can join if they want
3. Shouldnt be forced to join a union to keep/get a job
4. Dont think they are as necessary today as they were 50-100 years ago

I think that about sums it up.

Perhaps a fourth thread in the series is needed: Why would anyone hate right-to-work states?

jhay78;1243604 wrote:Perhaps a fourth thread in the series is needed: Why would anyone hate right-to-work states?

All people should hate a "right to work" state because the phrase is a misnomer. They should be called right-to-leach states. There is no state in the union wherein you're compelled to be in or a union or compelled to work under a contract that a union negotiated for you. However, in non right-to-leach states, if you benefit from a contract that a union negotiated for you, they can charge you an agency fee that pays for the bargaining costs (and can't legally be donated to liberal democrats).

It would be the same as passing a law saying, If a lawyer negotiates a settlement for you, the agency fee is voluntary.

Even if you think Unions aren't a good thing..."right-to-work" isn't the way to get rid of them.

pmoney25;1243585 wrote:So to answer your question Boat, It seems most libertarians/conservatives on here

1. Dont hate Unions
2. Think people can join if they want
3. Shouldnt be forced to join a union to keep/get a job
4. Dont think they are as necessary today as they were 50-100 years ago

I think that about sums it up.

Well hate may be strong but I think folks are being a little shy about their contempt for private sector unions but that's ok...just thought I would try to create some discussion.

FWIW, a lot of people would like to join a union that Taft-Hartley act has made it rather difficult to unionize workplaces and no one can be forced to join a union or work under a contract negotiated by a union...even in a union a shop a person could approach the employer and negotiate his own employment contract if the employer wants to.

As far as necessity goes, collective bargaining was a large reason for the shared prosperity of the post-war years so despite safer workplaces, they may be sufficient to decrease income inequality.

I hate Unions because they leave their barrels and pallets on public property, away leaves a mess the same can be said for the Union agenda for American. Use the public, make a mess and blame the owners..

derek bomar;1243573 wrote:I worked for UPS in college and was in the union. This is why I hate unions.

Why? College kids get better benefits than their parents, really a flexible schedule if you need to call off, $1,500 for college a semester, much more $$ than McDonalds and a secure job. Sure some people go too far with the union protection but overall it's a way to really get a solid job and solid protection. I mean for drivers could you imagine if they didn't have a union? They try to fire drivers for almost everything and the intimidation they try on them is unreal sometimes

QuakerOats;1243286 wrote:I don't hate unions. I am not a fan at all of union 'leadership' though, which sold more jobs down the tubes than any management group ever did. A union is basically an affront to the leaders of an organization, an immediate roadblock and obstacle between two groups that should not be two groups; they should be one group - on the same team, working together to compete against their real 'enemies': global competitors.

I see no real purpose for a union in today's day and age. They may have been needed in some respects a hundred years ago, but today they are simply a major nuisance and a hindrance to the nimbleness and cost effectiveness that global players must retain in order to survive. I would never invest in a venture if I thought my capital was going to be put at even further risk by archaic unionism ..............and many, many other people/entrepreneurs feel the same way.


PS --- no one here ever said they "hate people in government..."; we just hate BIG GOVERNMENT, period; and rightly so, it squelches individual liberty and limits economic freedom. I am continuously amused you don't agree.

Gosh, I failed to mention that nearly every industry that unions have monopolized have been bankrupted. Just a minor point.

QuakerOats;1244243 wrote:Gosh, I failed to mention that nearly every industry that unions have monopolized have been bankrupted. Just a minor point.

IMO that's the businesses faults. They're the ones who agreed to unsustainable pensions. You know why lean manufacturing has gotten so big in the last few decades? Because the amount of waste that used to be in companies was absolutely unbelievable. At UPS I see that everything is ran as frugally as possible and that is how they've been able to sustain making record profits despite giving raise after raise to the Teamsters. The auto industry saw a long time where it lacked ingenuity and was poorly run, eventually the wages and pensions wore them down but if they could of made a product as good as Toyota or Honda they would have never gone completely bankrupt

Classyposter58;1243943 wrote:... I mean for drivers could you imagine if they didn't have a union? They try to fire drivers for almost everything and the intimidation they try on them is unreal sometimes

What value does the driver bring when considering the potential large supply of this skill set?

"potential"