Fab1b;1233127 wrote:PSU loses major sponsor State Farm:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/penn-state-sanctions-echo-community-072933586--ncaaf.html

Pepsi is sticking with them. They dropped Ludacris because of offensive, anti-women lyrics, but I guess bleeding assholes in the shower are ok. Kid fuckers must be their demo.

[INDENT]The NCAA has a specific morality clause for it's coaches. They are penalizing Penn State for not following such rules. That's not over-stepping your bounds. [/INDENT]

That's fine...and as such penalties should be levied solely against Paterno and the individuals responsible. The university is subject to civil suits where all parties are afforded due process by law. This is hardly the case with the NCAA's ruling which is arbitrary to say the least.
No, the NCAA is guilty of piling on, and I'm throwing the yellow flag on them...

gosh a ruddies if the penalties are so horrible psu could quit the ncaa. it is a voluntary organization. they could quit the ncaa. or take their richly justified penalties. i guess they are taken the second alternative.

Graham Spanier, a family sociologist and therapist who has openly admitted that he was affected by sexual abuse as a child, says that the Freeh Report is "egregious in its incomplete and inaccruate reporting." The former Penn State president went on to add that the entire document is "full of factual errors and jumpts to conclusions that are untrue and unwarranted."

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/ex-penn-state-president-graham-spanier-says-abused-211442341--ncaaf.html

As I've said before, the Freeh Report is not the final chapter in this saga. It is drenched with far too much speculation based on inconclusive and ambiguous pieces of evidence and is in no way an accurate account of the events that actually transpired over 10 years ago.

gosh a ruddies I know what I always put the most faith in, the unsworn statements of a co-conspirator.

reclegend22;1233425 wrote:It is drenched with far too much speculation based on inconclusive and ambiguous pieces of evidence and is in no way an accurate account of the events that actually transpired over 10 years ago.

You do not know this, you can not know this.

Honestly, I understand why Rec is taking the defensive posture. He is a Duke fan and is probably pretty reluctant to judge someone before a full and complete investigation into a scandal is done. Duke Lacrosse.

But it is fair to say at this point it doesn't look good for JoePa and Co.

Fly4Fun;1233437 wrote:Honestly, I understand why Rec is taking the defensive posture. He is a Duke fan and is probably pretty reluctant to judge someone before a full and complete investigation into a scandal is done. Duke Lacrosse.

But it is fair to say at this point it doesn't look good for JoePa and Co.

Exactly. Good post. And while I am definitely maintaining my defense of Paterno right now until more facts come into play, I do agree that on the outside looking in things do not bode well for him and the rest involved. They have some serious explaining to do. But I am very interested in what we might hear from Curley, Schultz and Spanier moving forward and think that there is a reasonable chance that at least Paterno and Spanier were/are telling the truth.

We will see.

reclegend22;1233425 wrote:Graham Spanier, a family sociologist and therapist who has openly admitted that he was affected by sexual abuse as a child, says that the Freeh Report is "egregious in its incomplete and inaccruate reporting." The former Penn State president went on to add that the entire document is "full of factual errors and jumpts to conclusions that are untrue and unwarranted."

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/ex-penn-state-president-graham-spanier-says-abused-211442341--ncaaf.html

As I've said before, the Freeh Report is not the final chapter in this saga. It is drenched with far too much speculation based on inconclusive and ambiguous pieces of evidence and is in no way an accurate account of the events that actually transpired over 10 years ago.

And you expected Spanier to just admit it was all true?

isadore;1233428 wrote:gosh a ruddies I know what I always put the most faith in, the unsworn statements of a co-conspirator.

I will go ahead and choose to put more faith in what an esteemed family therapist, once greatly respected university president and victim of childhood sexual abuse has to say on this sensitive matter than a random dude named "isadore" on the information superhighway. Thanks for your input, though.

WebFire;1233441 wrote:And you expected Spanier to just admit it was all true?

From Graham Spanier:

"It is unfathomable and illogical to think that a respected family sociologist and family therapist, someone who personally experienced massive and persistent abuse as a child, someone who devoted a significant portion of his career to the welfare of children and youth ... would have knowingly turned a blind eye to any report of child abuse or predatory sexual acts directed at children."

He makes a fascinating and convincing point. Why would a victim of sexual abuse, who was tormented as a child, choose to actively participate in the covering up of child sexual abuse and allow even more kids' lives to be destroyed? It doesn't add up.

^you'd believe him over an ex FBI Director? Who compiled his findings based on 400 interviews, and what? like 3 million documents? Not to mention, that same man was hired by PSU Board of Trustees to do it?

HitsRus;1233365 wrote:That's fine...and as such penalties should be levied solely against Paterno and the individuals responsible. The university is subject to civil suits where all parties are afforded due process by law. This is hardly the case with the NCAA's ruling which is arbitrary to say the least.
No, the NCAA is guilty of piling on, and I'm throwing the yellow flag on them...

It doesn't matter if the University is subject to civil suits or not. The NCAA has the authority and desire to levy penalties against the university for the actions of it's employees and representatives...and that's what they chose to do.

raiderbuck;1233449 wrote:^you'd believe him over an ex FBI Director? Who compiled his findings based on 400 interviews, and what? like 3 million documents? Not to mention, that same man was hired by PSU Board of Trustees to do it?

Of those 3 million documents, only like two are relevant. So I find it laughable that people keep throwing that number around like it's significant and serves as some sort of proof that Paterno and Spanier are guilty. "I mean, there's 2 million pieces of paper! He definitely helped people rape children based on that alone!" Yeah, but aside from the two emails, what do the other 2 million documents really explain?

And to answer your question, after reading through the Freeh Report and seeing that there are definite gaps in the information that leave room for doubt in the report's ultimate findings, yes, I do think that Spanier could be telling the complete truth.

reclegend22;1233425 wrote:Graham Spanier, a family sociologist and therapist who has openly admitted that he was affected by sexual abuse as a child, says that the Freeh Report is "egregious in its incomplete and inaccruate reporting." The former Penn State president went on to add that the entire document is "full of factual errors and jumpts to conclusions that are untrue and unwarranted."

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/ex-penn-state-president-graham-spanier-says-abused-211442341--ncaaf.html

As I've said before, the Freeh Report is not the final chapter in this saga. It is drenched with far too much speculation based on inconclusive and ambiguous pieces of evidence and is in no way an accurate account of the events that actually transpired over 10 years ago.

The NCAA has stated that this report is greater in depth than they would have done themselves. Be it ladened with speculation or not, it is a more thorough study of the events that took place and provided mroe information than they would have uncovered. Based on what is available the NCAA has made their determination.

You don't ave to like nor agree with it. No one has to. The actions or not based on please the fans or even it's members. It's their decisions.

reclegend22;1233454 wrote:Of those 3 million documents, only like two are relevant. So I find it laughable that people keep throwing that number around like it's significant and serves as some sort of proof that Paterno and Spanier are guilty. "I mean, there's 2 million pieces of paper! He definitely helped people rape children based on that alone!" Yeah, but aside from the two emails, what do the other 2 million documents really explain?

And to answer your question, after reading through the Freeh Report and seeing that there are definite gaps in the information that leave room for doubt in the report's ultimate findings, yes, I do think that Spanier could be telling the complete truth.

There may be plenty of doubt. All that matters is what the NCAA deems that matters.

raiderbuck;1233449 wrote:^you'd believe him over an ex FBI Director? Who compiled his findings based on 400 interviews, and what? like 3 million documents? Not to mention, that same man was hired by PSU Board of Trustees to do it?

A man who was hired by the Board of Trustees. Ever hear of something called a confirmation bias? It's basically a tendency that all people have to put more importance/emphasis on information that confirms their beliefs. It's the essence of why so many people can view the same event and have different memories and ideas about what actually happened. (A perfect simple example of this is football replays)

No human is truly 100% neutral. That's impossible. People can try to control their actions and remain neutral in how they act. But the human mind is biased as all hell.

Is there a chance that it all went down as the Freeh report says it did? Of course. But there is also a chance that it got things wrong as it was hired by the Board of Trustees, people trying to place the blame on individuals no longer associated with the University so they can "move on." While I doubt there was ever an overt attempt to sway the investigation or the Freeh report was intentionally slanted in a way, it is entirely possible that subconscious activities of the mind were at work when scanning over all that overload of information. This is truly an ugly incident no matter how you slice it, and people go into any activity with their own personal biases. To act like the Freeh report is 100% truth would be foolish.

People like to believe there is a "truth" to any event that happens in life. But the reality of the situation is two people watching a recorded event over and over can still perceive it differently. "Truth" is what a person perceives through the lens of all their life experiences and biases.

Now with all that said, I still believe that the Freeh report is really damning and that JoePa's supporters have a long way to go if they are going to try to get JoePa out of the hole he is in, figuratively.

raiderbuck;1233449 wrote:^you'd believe him over an ex FBI Director? Who compiled his findings based on 400 interviews, and what? like 3 million documents? Not to mention, that same man was hired by PSU Board of Trustees to do it?

And as for the 400 interviews part of your post, the great majority of them probably had no direct knowledge of what was actually going on in the PSU football program. If they did, we would be reading their quotes in bold: "Joe covered it up. I heard it all." Until we are actually able to hear from the people themselves who wrote and sent the emails documented in the Freeh Report, absolutely no hard, definitive evidence can be attributed to those emails as we don't even know the context of what was actually being discussed or said in them.

Why do you post as if the NCAA is required to have any evidence at all? This is not a judging court of law with prestated methods used to come to conclusive judgment.

Con_Alma;1233475 wrote:Why do you post as if the NCAA is required to have any evidence at all? This is not a judging court of law with prestated methods used to come to conclusive judgment.

I'm not all that concerned with the NCAA's ruling. I think they rushed too quickly to make their ruling, but, as has been pointed out, the NCAA can do whatever it wants to do.

My argument is simply that in the real world, which is what actually matters, the jury is still out on whether or not Paterno and Spanier were knowing partipants in a grand plan to mask child sexual abuse.

reclegend22;1233480 wrote:I'm not all that concerned with the NCAA's ruling. I think they rushed too quickly to make their ruling, but, as has been pointed out, the NCAA can do whatever it wants to do.

My argument is simply that in the real world, which is what actually matters, the jury is still out on whether or not Paterno and Spanier were knowing partipants in a grand plan to mask child sexual abuse.

In the real world "perception is reality". That's how people function. Proof lies in the statue coming down. In the "real world" Mr. Paterno is guilty. In the "real world" Penn State is guilty. That isn't going to change anytime soon. Even if he wasn't involved or didn't cover anything up, the people will always view him and the University very different now. That's as real as it gets.

Con_Alma;1233483 wrote:In the real world "perception is reality". That's how people function. Proof lies in the statue coming down. In the "real world" Mr. Paterno is guilty. In the "real world" Penn State is guilty. That isn't going to change anytime soon. Even if he wasn't involved or didn't cover anything up, the people will always view him and the University very different now. That's as real as it gets.

All of that might paint a vivid picture of guilt, but it doesn't actually mean that Paterno is in reality guilty. That's all I am saying.

Graham Spanier is obviously limited in what he can say right now, but I think his personal account of how it all went down will eventually come out in the future and hopefully will help to solve a lot of the missing pieces of information in the Freeh Report. I look forward to how it all unfolds and will hope for the best.

reclegend22;1233487 wrote:All of that might paint a vivid picture of guilt, but it doesn't actually mean that Paterno is in reality guilty. That's all I am saying.

Graham Spanier is obviously limited in what he can say right now, but I think his personal account of how it all went down will eventually come out in the future and hopefully will help to solve a lot of the missing pieces of information in the Freeh Report. I look forward to how it all unfolds and will hope for the best.

In the only court that truly matters when it comes to public figures and the money that follows it, the court of public opinion says he and the University are guilty.

reclegend22;1233448 wrote:From Graham Spanier:

"It is unfathomable and illogical to think that a respected family sociologist and family therapist, someone who personally experienced massive and persistent abuse as a child, someone who devoted a significant portion of his career to the welfare of children and youth ... would have knowingly turned a blind eye to any report of child abuse or predatory sexual acts directed at children."

He makes a fascinating and convincing point. Why would a victim of sexual abuse, who was tormented as a child, choose to actively participate in the covering up of child sexual abuse and allow even more kids' lives to be destroyed? It doesn't add up.

Wait! Isn't your point that the report shows no proof? Then you come back with this? Which has no proof as well. You are arguing no proof with no proof.

reclegend22;1233425 wrote:Graham Spanier, a family sociologist and therapist who has openly admitted that he was affected by sexual abuse as a child, says that the Freeh Report is "egregious in its incomplete and inaccruate reporting." The former Penn State president went on to add that the entire document is "full of factual errors and jumpts to conclusions that are untrue and unwarranted."

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/ex-penn-state-president-graham-spanier-says-abused-211442341--ncaaf.html

As I've said before, the Freeh Report is not the final chapter in this saga. It is drenched with far too much speculation based on inconclusive and ambiguous pieces of evidence and is in no way an accurate account of the events that actually transpired over 10 years ago.

This Graham Spanier?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--graham-spanier-penn-state-freeh-report-joe-paterno-curtis-enis-jeff-nalley.html#more-id

There is one instance in the Freeh Commission report where Graham Spanier, the disgraced former Penn State president, said enough is enough. One instance when he slammed down his authoritative fist to protect the welfare of his charges and the reputation of his institution.It wasn't against Jerry Sandusky, of course.

It was December 1997 and Spanier was soon to learn that the longtime Penn State defensive coordinator had been accused of molesting a young boy while showering with him in the Penn State locker room, according to the Freeh report. But Spanier wouldn't stand up to old Jer, because that wouldn't be the "humane" way of handling it. Or so he wrote in an email.

No, Sandusky got to keep fondling right under Spanier's nose for years to come.

That was a pardon not shared by star Penn State running back Curtis Enis and professional sports agent Jeff Nalley, who dared violate the document that directed Spanier's moral compass, the NCAA rulebook.

Enis was immediately declared ineligible, and cited as a stain on Penn State's so-called "grand experiment" of creating a healthy balance between academics and athletics. The agent, meanwhile, was reported to the NCAA and the local district attorney, banned from ever setting foot on Penn State's campus ("persona non grata" Spanier declared), charged with a crime and publicly shamed by the president himself so everyone understood the evil and danger he represented.

"He fooled around with the integrity of the university," Spanier said at the time, according to the Freeh report. "And I won't stand for that."

If fooling around with kids in the showers was something Graham Spanier could apparently stand for, then what was Enis and Nalley's crime against humanity?

They bought a suit.

Great character witness, him.