When this thread started, I'm pretty sure no one had this reaching more than 5 pages.

#sleeperwins?

sleeper;1159848 wrote:Must not be that strong of a faith then if some priests with a GED can get up there and make crap up about the afterlife.

They may or may not have "that strong of a faith". I don't know nor does it impact mine.

DeyDurkie5;1159851 wrote:When this thread started, I'm pretty sure no one had this reaching more than 5 pages.

#sleeperwins?

Why not? It has the potential of reaching 50 if we let it. That's a good thing in my opinion. It's also good for Justincredible's short term business!

Con_Alma;1159823 wrote:If each knew the other was correct wouldn't he/she subscribe to that belief?

I guess what I'm trying to grasp is how one comes to feel they "know" something is fact from a source that apparently contains no such certainty. I know you've already gone with the faith defense, but if it is a pick-and-choose system, how does one develop faith in it? There's disagreement in how you get to heaven, what happens if you don't go to heaven, etc. But everyone says they "know".

So once you get past pretending you have any clue and stop referencing a source that you've already acknoweldged that you don't even believe is fact, I'd be interested to know why you picked your certain belief - what are you allowed to do and still get into heaven and with what tragedies or perceived injustices have you been able to cope as a result of feeling there are better things awaiting.

enigmaax;1159856 wrote:I guess what I'm trying to grasp is how one comes to feel they "know" something is fact from a source that apparently contains no such certainty. I know you've already gone with the faith defense, but if it is a pick-and-choose system, how does one develop faith in it? There's disagreement in how you get to heaven, what happens if you don't go to heaven, etc. But everyone says they "know". ....

I can't speak for others but I thought I personally already answered that. ...the presence of the Holy Spirit, prayer and continued study of the Holy Scriptures.

I don't know what would happen if we don't "go to heaven". I have no reason to contemplate that because Ibelieve we do. Maybe that's something for you to think over as opposed to me.

enigmaax;1159856 wrote:...

So once you get past pretending you have any clue and stop referencing a source that you've already acknoweldged that you don't even believe is fact, I'd be interested to know why you picked your certain belief - what are you allowed to do and still get into heaven and with what tragedies or perceived injustices have you been able to cope as a result of feeling there are better things awaiting.

I haven't really had what I would call tragedies to cope with but to answer your question directly, if there have been any I have been able to cope with them all. So have you in your life. You're still here. One way or another you got through it. I'm not sure what the driver is in that question.

Regarding why this belief, I don't say that I picked it. I have accepted it through help from God by the presence of the Holy Spirit, continued prayer to him and continued study. There's no end to those efforts. It's still on going.

Con_Alma;1159855 wrote:Why not? It has the potential of reaching 50 if we let it. That's a good thing in my opinion. It's also good for Justincredible's short term business!

it's already at 61

vball10set;1159862 wrote:it's already at 61

LOl. Let's go fro 161!

Con_Alma;1159864 wrote:LOl. Let's go fro 161!

cool--I'll keep posting pics of Kate Upton then :thumbup:

vball10set;1159867 wrote:cool--I'll keep posting pics of Kate Upton then :thumbup:

That will get us closer!

sleeper;1159822 wrote:The flood never happened. It's impossible.

The flood never happened, and it's impossible are two completely separate statements.

The flood never happened could very well be a true statement.

It's impossible is something that I'd love for you to show me.

Keep in mind, you should really look at Dr. John Baumgartner (sp?) and his Terra plate tectonic simulation. It is known as one of the best plate tectonic models in the world and he has also used the simulation/model to show how a global flood was/is possible scientifically. He did NOT prove it happened, just said it was possible scientifically.

Con_Alma;1159858 wrote:I can't speak for others but I thought I personally already answered that. ...the presence of the Holy Spirit, prayer and continued study of the Holy Scriptures.

I don't know what would happen if we don't "go to heaven". I have no reason to contemplate that because Ibelieve we do. Maybe that's something for you to think over as opposed to me.

So one day, you randomly picked up a Bible and thought "Hey, this sounds cool." Next thing, God was there?

enigmaax;1159895 wrote:So one day, you randomly picked up a Bible and thought "Hey, this sounds cool." Next thing, God was there?

You forgot the other two things. It was the combination of the three. I don't believe it was random at all.

God was always there. He is always here.

jmog;1159885 wrote:The flood never happened, and it's impossible are two completely separate statements.

The flood never happened could very well be a true statement.

It's impossible is something that I'd love for you to show me.

Keep in mind, you should really look at Dr. John Baumgartner (sp?) and his Terra plate tectonic simulation. It is known as one of the best plate tectonic models in the world and he has also used the simulation/model to show how a global flood was/is possible scientifically. He did NOT prove it happened, just said it was possible scientifically.

That's one guy (who as a young earth creationist has an incentive to try to prove that such a flood is possible/happened). Yes he has been published and such but so have plenty of others that say it's impossible.

And the flood as the Bible tells it is actually impossible. The rate of rainfall required to cover the entire world in only forty days would have to be absurd, like inches per minute absurd. Then there's the problem of "where the fuck did the water come from?" even if that did happen.

Besides the flood story in the Bible is a blatent rip off of the one in Gilgamesh.

I Wear Pants;1159905 wrote:That's one guy (who as a young earth creationist has an incentive to try to prove that such a flood is possible/happened). Yes he has been published and such but so have plenty of others that say it's impossible.

And the flood as the Bible tells it is actually impossible. The rate of rainfall required to cover the entire world in only forty days would have to be absurd, like inches per minute absurd. Then there's the problem of "where the **** did the water come from?" even if that did happen.

Meanwhile...

A single cell organism, blob, amoeba, or whatever you want to call it evolving into ANY species over the course of 5.42 billion years seems highly likely.

Con_Alma;1159902 wrote:You forgot the other two things. It was the combination of the three. I don't believe it was random at all.

God was always there. He is always here.

So in what order did these happen - A) you felt this presence, B) you prayed, C) you read the Bible.

I Wear Pants;1159905 wrote:That's one guy (who as a young earth creationist has an incentive to try to prove that such a flood is possible/happened). Yes he has been published and such but so have plenty of others that say it's impossible.

And the flood as the Bible tells it is actually impossible. The rate of rainfall required to cover the entire world in only forty days would have to be absurd, like inches per minute absurd. Then there's the problem of "where the **** did the water come from?" even if that did happen.

No it is not, your opinion doesn't make it fact.

Through the plate tectonic simulation it is shown that the mountains before a hypothetical flood would be considered large hills by now, the largest mountain ranges in the world like the Andes, Himalayas, Rockies, etc would have all been formed due to the massive plate tectonic shifts caused by a global flood.

So, not nearly the amount of water needed as you are assuming.

jmog;1159885 wrote:The flood never happened, and it's impossible are two completely separate statements.

The flood never happened could very well be a true statement.

It's impossible is something that I'd love for you to show me.

Keep in mind, you should really look at Dr. John Baumgartner (sp?) and his Terra plate tectonic simulation. It is known as one of the best plate tectonic models in the world and he has also used the simulation/model to show how a global flood was/is possible scientifically. He did NOT prove it happened, just said it was possible scientifically.

You're delusional jmog. Get help.

sleeper;1159921 wrote:You're delusional jmog. Get help.

Ah, no proof, just ad hominem attacks. Guess who wins arguments that end in ad hominem? Not the person slinging the insults.

jmog;1159920 wrote:No it is not, your opinion doesn't make it fact.

Through the plate tectonic simulation it is shown that the mountains before a hypothetical flood would be considered large hills by now, the largest mountain ranges in the world like the Andes, Himalayas, Rockies, etc would have all been formed due to the massive plate tectonic shifts caused by a global flood.

So, not nearly the amount of water needed as you are assuming.

" So we know the average radius of the Earth at sea level is approximately 6371 km (and yes I am aware that Earth is not a perfect sphere but for the purposes of simplicity I think you will agree there is no harm done in modeling it as one). We also know that 29.2% of the Earth is covered by land with a mean height of 840 m. So with a little bit of math we can find the approximate volume of land above sea level by (4/3)π(r2[SUP]3[/SUP] – r1[SUP]3)[/SUP] * (%land) = (4/3) * π[(6,371,840m)[SUP]3[/SUP] – (6,371,000m)[SUP]3][/SUP] * (29.2%) = 1.25 * 10[SUP]17[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP]
Now we also know that the highest point on Earth is Mt. Everest at 8,848 m and according to Genesis, “The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.” (Genesis 7:19-21) Now for all of you folks that don't still measure in cubits, 15 cubit = 6.8 meters. That means that during the flood sea level would have risen to an astounding hight of 8,850 m above sea level. And with a little more math we can see that the amount of water it would take to accomplish that would be
(4/3)π(r2[SUP]3[/SUP] – r1[SUP]3)[/SUP] – Vland = (4/3) * π[(6,379,850m)[SUP]3[/SUP] – (6,371,000m)[SUP]3][/SUP] - 1.25 * 10[SUP]17[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] = 4.39 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP]
Now that's a lot of water! Especially considering that this is the amount of water ABOVE sea level would be in addition to the 1.386 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] of water already here for a grand total of 5.781 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] of water required for the flood of Genesis. Now that's 4.17 times the water on the Earth pre and post flood. Now we all know that mass can be neither created nor destroyed so all that extra water, which by the way comes to a total mass of 4.39 * 10[SUP]21[/SUP] Kg, had to come from somewhere. The only remotely plausible explanation I can think of is that this mass came from the atmosphere but as the atmosphere has a mass of only 5.1 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] Kg which is around one thousandth of that required, not to mention that it's mostly nitrogen, we can obviously rule it out. No matter how you shake it there just isn't enough free hydrogen or oxygen on our planet to create that much extra water. So I'm sorry religion, but a natural disaster of that proportion is just not plausible."

Your plate tectonic model doesn't account for the reality of the dispersion of fossils, mineral deposits, and plant and animal life nor for the geologic records that we find.
Then there's the whole problem with the fact that there were fucking civiliazations that we know of at the time that didn't all drown to death.

And if any of you hear someone saying that 40 days of food for livestock wouldn't be that hard to stock in a large boat punch them in the throat. Not only would 40 days be incredibly difficult to stock but the flood didn't last 40 days. That's how long the rain lasted : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%207:4&version=NIV

The flood lasted about a year. (Started 17th day of second month of Noah's 600th year, Ended 1st day of the 1st month of Noah's 601st year). http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%207:11-12&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%208:13-14&version=NIV

jmog;1159923 wrote:Ah, no proof, just ad hominem attacks. Guess who wins arguments that end in ad hominem? Not the person slinging the insults.

You're an evangelical Christian. I could have irrefutable evidence that God doesn't exist and you'd still believe.

Your mind is broken.

I Wear Pants;1159924 wrote:" So we know the average radius of the Earth at sea level is approximately 6371 km (and yes I am aware that Earth is not a perfect sphere but for the purposes of simplicity I think you will agree there is no harm done in modeling it as one). We also know that 29.2% of the Earth is covered by land with a mean height of 840 m. So with a little bit of math we can find the approximate volume of land above sea level by (4/3)π(r2[SUP]3[/SUP] – r1[SUP]3)[/SUP] * (%land) = (4/3) * π[(6,371,840m)[SUP]3[/SUP] – (6,371,000m)[SUP]3][/SUP] * (29.2%) = 1.25 * 10[SUP]17[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP]
Now we also know that the highest point on Earth is Mt. Everest at 8,848 m and according to Genesis, “The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.” (Genesis 7:19-21) Now for all of you folks that don't still measure in cubits, 15 cubit = 6.8 meters. That means that during the flood sea level would have risen to an astounding hight of 8,850 m above sea level. And with a little more math we can see that the amount of water it would take to accomplish that would be
(4/3)π(r2[SUP]3[/SUP] – r1[SUP]3)[/SUP] – Vland = (4/3) * π[(6,379,850m)[SUP]3[/SUP] – (6,371,000m)[SUP]3][/SUP] - 1.25 * 10[SUP]17[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] = 4.39 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP]
Now that's a lot of water! Especially considering that this is the amount of water ABOVE sea level would be in addition to the 1.386 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] of water already here for a grand total of 5.781 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] of water required for the flood of Genesis. Now that's 4.17 times the water on the Earth pre and post flood. Now we all know that mass can be neither created nor destroyed so all that extra water, which by the way comes to a total mass of 4.39 * 10[SUP]21[/SUP] Kg, had to come from somewhere. The only remotely plausible explanation I can think of is that this mass came from the atmosphere but as the atmosphere has a mass of only 5.1 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] Kg which is around one thousandth of that required, not to mention that it's mostly nitrogen, we can obviously rule it out. No matter how you shake it there just isn't enough free hydrogen or oxygen on our planet to create that much extra water. So I'm sorry religion, but a natural disaster of that proportion is just not plausible."

It doesn't say whale, it says large fish.

I Wear Pants;1159924 wrote:" So we know the average radius of the Earth at sea level is approximately 6371 km (and yes I am aware that Earth is not a perfect sphere but for the purposes of simplicity I think you will agree there is no harm done in modeling it as one). We also know that 29.2% of the Earth is covered by land with a mean height of 840 m. So with a little bit of math we can find the approximate volume of land above sea level by (4/3)π(r2[SUP]3[/SUP] – r1[SUP]3)[/SUP] * (%land) = (4/3) * π[(6,371,840m)[SUP]3[/SUP] – (6,371,000m)[SUP]3][/SUP] * (29.2%) = 1.25 * 10[SUP]17[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP]
Now we also know that the highest point on Earth is Mt. Everest at 8,848 m and according to Genesis, “The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.” (Genesis 7:19-21) Now for all of you folks that don't still measure in cubits, 15 cubit = 6.8 meters. That means that during the flood sea level would have risen to an astounding hight of 8,850 m above sea level. And with a little more math we can see that the amount of water it would take to accomplish that would be
(4/3)π(r2[SUP]3[/SUP] – r1[SUP]3)[/SUP] – Vland = (4/3) * π[(6,379,850m)[SUP]3[/SUP] – (6,371,000m)[SUP]3][/SUP] - 1.25 * 10[SUP]17[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] = 4.39 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP]
Now that's a lot of water! Especially considering that this is the amount of water ABOVE sea level would be in addition to the 1.386 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] of water already here for a grand total of 5.781 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] m[SUP]3[/SUP] of water required for the flood of Genesis. Now that's 4.17 times the water on the Earth pre and post flood. Now we all know that mass can be neither created nor destroyed so all that extra water, which by the way comes to a total mass of 4.39 * 10[SUP]21[/SUP] Kg, had to come from somewhere. The only remotely plausible explanation I can think of is that this mass came from the atmosphere but as the atmosphere has a mass of only 5.1 * 10[SUP]18[/SUP] Kg which is around one thousandth of that required, not to mention that it's mostly nitrogen, we can obviously rule it out. No matter how you shake it there just isn't enough free hydrogen or oxygen on our planet to create that much extra water. So I'm sorry religion, but a natural disaster of that proportion is just not plausible."

I will say again...read Dr. Baumgartner's work, if a flood did happen his model shows that the mountains we know now were formed BY plate tectonic shifts that were caused by the flood. So the mountains we know now did not exist until different continents slammed into each other after the flood.

There goes your copy/paste math.

Any high school geometry kid can do that volume of a sphere math, the problem is the original assumption maybe way off. In other words, the "r2" would be a whole lot closer to the "r1" making the calculation predict MUCH less water.

sleeper;1159926 wrote:You're an evangelical Christian. I could have irrefutable evidence that God doesn't exist and you'd still believe.

Your mind is broken.

Any time you want to go head to head in any academic arena, let me know...guarantee my mind isn't broken.

Uhhh. Looks like it adds up to potatoe.