I Wear Pants;1150929 wrote:So what is the reason for your faith? And why don't you have that same faith for any of the thousands of other religions that have existed?

Asking for some reasons why faith in Christianity (or other religions) should be had is a pretty reasonable question.

Of course it's a perfectly reasonable question. It's been answered several times throughout the thread...you guys simply don't like the answers.

The bottom line is that there is no "concrete reason" for having faith. The definition of it is in fact "belief in something not based on proof." Hence, you and sleeper's obsession with someone presenting such "proof" is just as silly as the guy asking me if I know where I'm going when I die.

I'm not trying to offend anyone with my beliefs. I'm not an atheist, an agnostic would probably be closer to what I believe. I grew up in a very Catholic household and went to Catholic school for 12 years and church every Sunday during that time so I'd like to think I'm pretty well versed in a lot of what Christianity and the Bible have to say.

At no point when I went to church did I think I had a purpose for being there. Maybe I just haven't had my "moment where God talks to me" but until that happens I have the right to be skeptical. I don't criticize belief in a higher power as much as I do the thought of modern organized religion. After years of trying to figure out if God exists or if he does exist, why is he such a jealous, spiteful, asshole I've instead decided to focus on living my life (because for all I know FOR SURE I only have one) and try to do so in a way that is similar to what the Bible proclaims to be a just life. I believe in the power of man, just look at all man has accomplished over the last 1000 years. If I live a life where I love my friends and family and help out my fellow man I can die in piece....and if I do end up at the pearly gates and don't get accepted into Heaven, Valhalla, or whatever else is there for the afterlife well then I guess it's not a heaven I want to be a part of anyways....At least I know I won't be lonely in Hell.

My thing is I don't know, I will never know for sure, so I'm not going to base my life around a belief that I will never totally believe in. If others want to do that it's there right and I have no problem with that....some people just need to realize that there are a LOT of beliefs and a LOT of religions out there not only now but throughout history. What makes you think that you're right? What makes you think you're belief in what's right is more concrete than the Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist that lives on the other side of the world?

Y-Town Steelhound;1150943 wrote:I'm not trying to offend anyone with my beliefs. I'm not an atheist, an agnostic would probably be closer to what I believe. I grew up in a very Catholic household and went to Catholic school for 12 years and church every Sunday during that time so I'd like to think I'm pretty well versed in a lot of what Christianity and the Bible have to say.

At no point when I went to church did I think I had a purpose for being there. Maybe I just haven't had my "moment where God talks to me" but until that happens I have the right to be skeptical. I don't criticize belief in a higher power as much as I do the thought of modern organized religion. After years of trying to figure out if God exists or if he does exist, why is he such a jealous, spiteful, asshole I've instead decided to focus on living my life (because for all I know FOR SURE I only have one) and try to do so in a way that is similar to what the Bible proclaims to be a just life. I believe in the power of man, just look at all man has accomplished over the last 1000 years. If I live a life where I love my friends and family and help out my fellow man I can die in piece....and if I do end up at the pearly gates and don't get accepted into Heaven, Valhalla, or whatever else is there for the afterlife well then I guess it's not a heaven I want to be a part of anyways....At least I know I won't be lonely in Hell.

My thing is I don't know, I will never know for sure, so I'm not going to base my life around a belief that I will never totally believe in.

You just described me perfectly. Before it was time to be confirmed I had a sit down with my mother and basically told her, "I'm done, I don't buy into any of this" and that was the end of religion for me. I felt I was faking it the entire time and I was only attending/participating to appease her. Then as I got older and more educated I realized it was a major crock of shit, but people are free to believe what they want as long as they do not impose their beliefs on me.

I don't regret the way I was brought up regarding religion, it served its purpose to instill certain moral values, but that all I got out of it.

fish82;1150940 wrote:Of course it's a perfectly reasonable question. It's been answered several times throughout the thread...you guys simply don't like the answers.

The bottom line is that there is no "concrete reason" for having faith. The definition of it is in fact "belief in something not based on proof." Hence, you and sleeper's obsession with someone presenting such "proof" is just as silly as the guy asking me if I know where I'm going when I die.

I find it hilarious that you pride yourself on living your life for faith, but can't explain why other than reasons defined within the faith. Call it what it is, you were indoctrinated by your parents and if you weren't you had a mid-life crises where you became weak and turned to god. You needed someone to be in control of your life, someone that would make things okay in the end. It's pathetic and I will ridicule believers until the day I die.

OSH;1150935 wrote:Well, the sun has been dying for how many years now?

I won't be around. I'll be extinct by the time the world is "over." I won't worry much about when/if the world is through.
.

Quite a few years, I was referring more towards the end. And while you may not be here, somebody will be and their time will be cut short.

sleeper;1150949 wrote:I find it hilarious that you pride yourself on living your life for faith, but can't explain why other than reasons defined within the faith. Call it what it is, you were indoctrinated by your parents and if you weren't you had a mid-life crises where you became weak and turned to god. You needed someone to be in control of your life, someone that would make things okay in the end. It's pathetic and I will ridicule believers until the day I die.

I find it hilarious that you think I "pride myself on living my life for faith," simply because I make fun of your mouth-frothing obsession with religion.

You should jump to some more conclusions, Sport. It enhances your sterling reputation even further.

fish82;1150951 wrote:I find it hilarious that you think I "pride myself on living my life for faith," simply because I make fun of your mouth-frothing obsession with religion.

You should jump to some more conclusions, Sport. It enhances your sterling reputation even further.

Not jumping to any conclusions, unless they are valid. It's an adult fairy tale designed to provide the weak a sense of control in their life and an award after they die if they behave themselves. Time to grow up.

fish82;1150940 wrote:Of course it's a perfectly reasonable question. It's been answered several times throughout the thread...you guys simply don't like the answers.

The bottom line is that there is no "concrete reason" for having faith. The definition of it is in fact "belief in something not based on proof." Hence, you and sleeper's obsession with someone presenting such "proof" is just as silly as the guy asking me if I know where I'm going when I die.

The problem I have is with this. Why would you believe something without any evidence. Why do you believe the way you do, it seems to me that there is a very good correlation between the religion of a child's parents and the religion of the child. That's telling to me as is the geographic distribution of religions. Because if the Christian myth (again, not belittling but it is technically a myth) is so much more valid and obvious as some would have in here are people in the Middle East or Asia so much more deluded than the rest of the world?

Y-Town Steelhound;1150943 wrote:I'm not trying to offend anyone with my beliefs. I'm not an atheist, an agnostic would probably be closer to what I believe. I grew up in a very Catholic household and went to Catholic school for 12 years and church every Sunday during that time so I'd like to think I'm pretty well versed in a lot of what Christianity and the Bible have to say.

At no point when I went to church did I think I had a purpose for being there. Maybe I just haven't had my "moment where God talks to me" but until that happens I have the right to be skeptical. I don't criticize belief in a higher power as much as I do the thought of modern organized religion. After years of trying to figure out if God exists or if he does exist, why is he such a jealous, spiteful, asshole I've instead decided to focus on living my life (because for all I know FOR SURE I only have one) and try to do so in a way that is similar to what the Bible proclaims to be a just life. I believe in the power of man, just look at all man has accomplished over the last 1000 years. If I live a life where I love my friends and family and help out my fellow man I can die in piece....and if I do end up at the pearly gates and don't get accepted into Heaven, Valhalla, or whatever else is there for the afterlife well then I guess it's not a heaven I want to be a part of anyways....At least I know I won't be lonely in Hell.

My thing is I don't know, I will never know for sure, so I'm not going to base my life around a belief that I will never totally believe in. If others want to do that it's there right and I have no problem with that....some people just need to realize that there are a LOT of beliefs and a LOT of religions out there not only now but throughout history. What makes you think that you're right? What makes you think you're belief in what's right is more concrete than the Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist that lives on the other side of the world?

This sounds like you're an atheist but more specifically an agnostic atheist, which most atheists are. I do not think there is a god because I haven't seen any evidence of a god nor do I find it a very compelling argument for the creation of the universe/life/humans/etc. But that does not mean I wouldn't be convinced by evidence or that I know for sure there isn't a god because I think that's one of the very few questions that science may never fully answer. Of course it's up to you to classify yourself really (and that we need to do so is a bit silly I think).

fish82;1150951 wrote:I find it hilarious that you think I "pride myself on living my life for faith," simply because I make fun of your mouth-frothing obsession with religion.

You should jump to some more conclusions, Sport. It enhances your sterling reputation even further.

Some people have a hard time actually READING posts. They would rather insinuate and ASSume things out of other peoples' posts.

Makes for pretty poor discussions. It also ruins threads. Good thing there are other posters here who can actually carry on a nice conversation about this topic (or any topic).

But, I am not telling you something you haven't already said or know!

Im sorry I said I wouldnt reply but I cant resist. I do actually enjoy how hard you try to have a clue.

I live my life the same exact way I do now that I did when I was atheist. My morals didnt change, my belief in science never changed, I still have challenges with faith and search for answers. I dont believe God will make me rich if I pray or would cure a disease if I pray. I dont believe faith should be pushed on people or even involved in govt.

Your assumption is my faith holds me back when in eyes it pushes me forward to find more answers. I will concede that people do just accept because they are told or because they are afraid and that is unfortunate.

pmoney25;1150983 wrote:Im sorry I said I wouldnt reply but I cant resist. I do actually enjoy how hard you try to have a clue.

I live my life the same exact way I do now that I did when I was atheist. My morals didnt change, my belief in science never changed, I still have challenges with faith and search for answers. I dont believe God will make me rich if I pray or would cure a disease if I pray. I dont believe faith should be pushed on people or even involved in govt.

Your assumption is my faith holds me back when in eyes it pushes me forward to find more answers. I will concede that people do just accept because they are told or because they are afraid and that is unfortunate.

This outlook appears rare amongst religious people or at least one's that I've encountered. And it's certainly rare among the outspoken and powerful religious people of various religions.

I Wear Pants;1150990 wrote:This outlook appears rare amongst religious people or at least one's that I've encountered.

I'd say the vast majority of Christians hold the exact same views, or some close variant thereof.

I Wear Pants;1150990 wrote:And it's certainly rare among the outspoken and powerful religious people of various religions.

Therein lies the problem, and a major part of why religion gets such a bad rap.

fish82;1151013 wrote:I'd say the vast majority of Christians hold the exact same views, or some close variant thereof.



Therein lies the problem, and a major part of why religion gets such a bad rap.

I don't know about vast majority, perhaps majority but there is a lot of support for using religion to influence politics and such at least in the US. I mean, teaching evolution is still a controversial thing in a ton of places which is insane in 2012.

Of course I could be wrong about it not being a majority and perhaps my perception is merely due to that outspoken minority. Entirely possible.

fish82;1151013 wrote:I'd say the vast majority of Christians hold the exact same views, or some close variant thereof.



Therein lies the problem, and a major part of why religion gets such a bad rap.

Who are the outspoken and powerful religious people you are speaking of?

I Wear Pants;1151026 wrote:I don't know about vast majority, perhaps majority but there is a lot of support for using religion to influence politics and such at least in the US. I mean, teaching evolution is still a controversial thing in a ton of places which is insane in 2012.

Of course I could be wrong about it not being a majority and perhaps my perception is merely due to that outspoken minority. Entirely possible.

Why can't both creation and evolution be taught and let parents decide which one their children hear?

Skyhook79;1151031 wrote:Why can't both creation and evolution be taught and let parents decide which one their children hear?

Because religion has no place in the science classroom. And evolution is based in evidence and fact. Religion as many here have stated is based on faith. Faith has no place in the science classroom or really a classroom at all outside of theology.

Teach your kid religion at home (I really wish you wouldn't but that's up to you).

On that point why do we think it's okay for people to indoctrinate their kids with religion? They aren't old enough to understand or make the decision whether they feel a religion or any religion is a valid explanation for things. To quote Dawkins again "if you hear anybody speak of a 'Catholic child' or 'Muslim child', stop them and politely point out that children are too young to know where they stand on such issues, just as they are too young to know where they stand on economics or politics...I'll say it again. That is not a Muslim child, but a child of Muslim parents. That child is too young to know whether it is a Muslim or not. There is no such thing as a Muslim child. There is no such thing as a Christian child".

It's a valid point, we wouldn't expect a child to be able to understand or choose between economic policies why do we expect them to choose their religion (I know the answer is that most parents don't expect their kids to choose but rather follow whatever religion they are)?

I Wear Pants;1151038 wrote:Because religion has no place in the science classroom. And evolution is based in evidence and fact. Religion as many here have stated is based on faith. Faith has no place in the science classroom or really a classroom at all outside of theology.

Teach your kid religion at home (I really wish you wouldn't but that's up to you).

On that point why do we think it's okay for people to indoctrinate their kids with religion? They aren't old enough to understand or make the decision whether they feel a religion or any religion is a valid explanation for things. To quote Dawkins again "if you hear anybody speak of a 'Catholic child' or 'Muslim child', stop them and politely point out that children are too young to know where they stand on such issues, just as they are too young to know where they stand on economics or politics...I'll say it again. That is not a Muslim child, but a child of Muslim parents. That child is too young to know whether it is a Muslim or not. There is no such thing as a Muslim child. There is no such thing as a Christian child".

It's a valid point, we wouldn't expect a child to be able to understand or choose between economic policies why do we expect them to choose their religion (I know the answer is that most parents don't expect their kids to choose but rather follow whatever religion they are)?

Talk about a crock of crap. Now Dawkins and you are going to tell Parents how to raise their own children? Thats laughable and Religion is a cult?

OSH;1150976 wrote:Some people have a hard time actually READING posts. They would rather insinuate and ASSume things out of other peoples' posts.

Makes for pretty poor discussions. It also ruins threads. Good thing there are other posters here who can actually carry on a nice conversation about this topic (or any topic).

But, I am not telling you something you haven't already said or know!

We have to assume. It's an internet message board, nobody has time to hear everything you believe on every single topic. That's the problem with believers, they customize their belief system to fit the argument. If I post irrefutable data showing that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old, you'll simply say "I don't believe in that". It's an all or nothing game; pointing out flaws in the religion should be enough for a rational individual to reject the belief.

But then again, we aren't dealing with rationality here. If we were, religion would not exist.

pmoney25;1150983 wrote:Im sorry I said I wouldnt reply but I cant resist. I do actually enjoy how hard you try to have a clue.

I live my life the same exact way I do now that I did when I was atheist. My morals didnt change, my belief in science never changed, I still have challenges with faith and search for answers. I dont believe God will make me rich if I pray or would cure a disease if I pray. I dont believe faith should be pushed on people or even involved in govt.

Your assumption is my faith holds me back when in eyes it pushes me forward to find more answers. I will concede that people do just accept because they are told or because they are afraid and that is unfortunate.

Great. Sounds like your hedging your bet. You're not even a true believer, so you won't get the "benefits" of faith, but yet you also won't get the intellectual integrity that the atheist possesses. We call that a lose lose, sounds like a great way to live your life. :rolleyes:

Skyhook79;1151054 wrote:Talk about a crock of crap. Now Dawkins and you are going to tell Parents how to raise their own children? Thats laughable and Religion is a cult?

How did you get that out of that?

I Wear Pants;1151038 wrote:Because religion has no place in the science classroom. And evolution is based in evidence and fact. Religion as many here have stated is based on faith. Faith has no place in the science classroom or really a classroom at all outside of theology.

Teach your kid religion at home (I really wish you wouldn't but that's up to you).

On that point why do we think it's okay for people to indoctrinate their kids with religion? They aren't old enough to understand or make the decision whether they feel a religion or any religion is a valid explanation for things. To quote Dawkins again "if you hear anybody speak of a 'Catholic child' or 'Muslim child', stop them and politely point out that children are too young to know where they stand on such issues, just as they are too young to know where they stand on economics or politics...I'll say it again. That is not a Muslim child, but a child of Muslim parents. That child is too young to know whether it is a Muslim or not. There is no such thing as a Muslim child. There is no such thing as a Christian child".

It's a valid point, we wouldn't expect a child to be able to understand or choose between economic policies why do we expect them to choose their religion (I know the answer is that most parents don't expect their kids to choose but rather follow whatever religion they are)?

DeyDurkie5;1151089 wrote:How did you get that out of that?

Pretty obvious isn't? They don't want you teaching your own kids about creation,God or the Bible.

Skyhook79;1151105 wrote:Pretty obvious isn't? They don't want you teaching your own kids about creation,God or the Bible.

I actually hope they teach the facts behind both creation and evolution in schools. It would take 2 minutes to discuss creation and have all the kids laugh at it; and the rest would be teaching actual science.

I Wear Pants;1151038 wrote:On that point why do we think it's okay for people to indoctrinate their kids with religion? They aren't old enough to understand or make the decision whether they feel a religion or any religion is a valid explanation for things. To quote Dawkins again "if you hear anybody speak of a 'Catholic child' or 'Muslim child', stop them and politely point out that children are too young to know where they stand on such issues, just as they are too young to know where they stand on economics or politics...I'll say it again. That is not a Muslim child, but a child of Muslim parents. That child is too young to know whether it is a Muslim or not. There is no such thing as a Muslim child. There is no such thing as a Christian child".

It's a valid point, we wouldn't expect a child to be able to understand or choose between economic policies why do we expect them to choose their religion (I know the answer is that most parents don't expect their kids to choose but rather follow whatever religion they are)?

I have no problems with what Dawkins says. Although it's not like his words hold more value over someone else's.

I do think that it is EXTREMELY wise to educate kids on ALL the different things -- including religion. But, I don't believe they are too young. There are some kids that can handle it. There are some that can't. There are some kids that can handle economics and politics. There are some that can't. To make a broad sweeping generalization that he is doing...is not a good thing.

It's no different than teaching kids anything in the "general education curriculum." Parents get things wrong all the time...math, science, English, history, etc. So should we just allow all these people tell us how to parent, or should we just let the schools do it?

Skyhook79;1151054 wrote:Talk about a crock of crap. Now Dawkins and you are going to tell Parents how to raise their own children? Thats laughable and Religion is a cult?

DeyDurkie5;1151089 wrote:How did you get that out of that?

I think I covered it in my reply to IWP. But, I am guessing Skyhook doesn't think that Dawkins or IWP should be telling someone else how to raise kids. Basically, why is Dawkins an authority figure on parenting?

OSH;1151111 wrote:I have no problems with what Dawkins says. Although it's not like his words hold more value over someone else's.

Do you feel the same way about your doctor? It's not like his words hole more value over someone else's.

Believers are so delusional. They'll waste any sense of credibility just to get an irrelevant point across. This comedy is better than Sherm's.

sleeper;1151109 wrote:I actually hope they teach the facts behind both creation and evolution in schools. It would take 2 minutes to discuss creation and have all the kids laugh at it; and the rest would be teaching actual science.

Proof?