Y-Town Steelhound;1150849 wrote:Considering it had certain books/gospels removed, I don't see why others couldn't be added.

How do we sort out or distinguish between those who say God tells them to write this or that and those who are full of bullshit? Who would determine these days if the Bible is changed (books added or removed)? And how would we "know" if it is the right decision or not?

Con_Alma;1150854 wrote:Then why state you hope I chose correctly?

I don't state my beliefs anymore than you do your's on here. Seems pretty even to me. If it's me sharing my opinion on the subject when it arises then I guess you are right in that it does matter to you.

Because I'd hate to see an intelligent mind ruined by the comforts of a cult like religion. Seems you've taken the steps off the deep end, sadly I cannot pray for you because that would be a waste of time.

Y-Town Steelhound;1150849 wrote:Considering it had certain books/gospels removed, I don't see why others couldn't be added.

enigmaax;1150856 wrote:How do we sort out or distinguish between those who say God tells them to write this or that and those who are full of bull****? Who would determine these days if the Bible is changed (books added or removed)? And how would we "know" if it is the right decision or not?

I can't say that there have been many (if any) books removed from what we currently call the Bible.

The books that are included in the Bible are backed by finds, archaeology, and history. There are enough copies of the texts (those that are included in the Bible) to make our current text. Yes, it is compiled by men choosing the books to include, but those men had a reason behind their choices. Again, it was the amount of copies of the manuscripts found from EACH book to include in the Bible. There are many reasons why the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Mary (and others) were not included were because they were dated MUCH later than the others, there isn't as much evidence that they were legitimate (reliable, historical, or utilized), and the history of each did not qualify each to be included.

So, this may be troublesome to some (or many). I can understand the hesitations to "trust" such a book. Believers have faith and belief that God has blessed the authors, the writings, and the texts makes the Bible a sacred compilation of documents. The fact that there are MANY different authors of these documents dating back hundreds of years...all pointing toward a single God while also fulfilling prophecies...is tremendous.

I have more faith in this than any scientist that tries to date the earth with a +/- of 500 million years. I have more faith in this than a theory that says all these creatures came from primordial ooze evolving over 4.52 billion years (whoops, +/- 500 million years). I have more faith in our lives having meaning than I do in an accident on earth that happened to have life on it.

Y-Town Steelhound;1150849 wrote:Considering it had certain books/gospels removed, I don't see why others couldn't be added.

No it didn't. Just because Dan Brown said so doesnt make it true.

enigmaax,y-town steelhound,sleeper and few others would have made outstanding Pharisee's back in Jesus day, the ones that tried trickery and trap people by twisting words and scripture.

OSH;1150866 wrote:I can't say that there have been many (if any) books removed from what we currently call the Bible.

The books that are included in the Bible are backed by finds, archaeology, and history. There are enough copies of the texts (those that are included in the Bible) to make our current text. Yes, it is compiled by men choosing the books to include, but those men had a reason behind their choices. Again, it was the amount of copies of the manuscripts found from EACH book to include in the Bible. There are many reasons why the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Mary (and others) were not included were because they were dated MUCH later than the others, there isn't as much evidence that they were legitimate (reliable, historical, or utilized), and the history of each did not qualify each to be included.

So, this may be troublesome to some (or many). I can understand the hesitations to "trust" such a book. Believers have faith and belief that God has blessed the authors, the writings, and the texts makes the Bible a sacred compilation of documents. The fact that there are MANY different authors of these documents dating back hundreds of years...all pointing toward a single God while also fulfilling prophecies...is tremendous.

I have more faith in this than any scientist that tries to date the earth with a +/- of 500 million years. I have more faith in this than a theory that says all these creatures came from primordial ooze evolving over 4.52 billion years (whoops, +/- 500 million years). I have more faith in our lives having meaning than I do in an accident on earth that happened to have life on it.

I guess the question many people have is do you have any logic based reasons to have that faith? Like, why do you not have as much or more skepticism when it comes to people saying a magical being (not trying to belittle, just it's a pretty accurate assessment of what the Christian god could be called) told them to write books, especially when some parts of the Bible are quite strange as you do in scientific theories that are built off of peer reviewed science and of which you can see the evidence of?

Also how is the lack of intervention by god explained seeing as there was apparently a lot of it back in the Biblical times?

Skyhook79;1150873 wrote:enigmaax,y-town steelhound,sleeper and few others would have made outstanding Pharisee's back in Jesus day, the ones that tried trickery and trap people by twisting words and scripture.

Another logical loophole designed by cults to keep its membership. Call people who try to call out your religion for the fraud it is, "Pharisee's".

OSH;1150866 wrote: I have more faith in our lives having meaning than I do in an accident on earth that happened to have life on it.

The human race will eventually become extinct, as will the entire planet. So is the meaning that we are an experiment by God?

BORIStheCrusher;1150889 wrote:The human race will eventually become extinct, as will the entire planet. So is the meaning that we are an experiment by God?

That for some reason reminded me of "Bukowski" by Modest Mouse:

If God controls the land and disease,
keeps a watchful eye on me,
If he's really so damn mighty,
my problem is I can't see,
well who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?

Which is another problem I have with most religions. Even if I were to accept that say the Christian god exists, I think if he does he's an asshole or at best a really shitty designer.

Skyhook79;1150873 wrote:enigmaax,y-town steelhound,sleeper and few others would have made outstanding Pharisee's back in Jesus day, the ones that tried trickery and trap people by twisting words and scripture.

Not sure what trickery, traps, or twisted words I've used. Mostly, I'm asking questions to try and understand your stance. I'm not out to prove you or anyone else wrong - I haven't made up my own mind. There are some things that I've yet to hear rationally explained, so I have an interest. If by twisting words you are referring to my "human qualities" post, I'm certainly interested in how you would explain the basic premises in a way that would make one interpret them differently.

BORIStheCrusher;1150889 wrote:The human race will eventually become extinct, as will the entire planet. So is the meaning that we are an experiment by God?

Based on what? Life for believers continues for eternity in Heaven.

I Wear Pants;1150885 wrote:I guess the question many people have is do you have any logic based reasons to have that faith? Like, why do you not have as much or more skepticism when it comes to people saying a magical being (not trying to belittle, just it's a pretty accurate assessment of what the Christian god could be called) told them to write books, especially when some parts of the Bible are quite strange as you do in scientific theories that are built off of peer reviewed science and of which you can see the evidence of?

Also how is the lack of intervention by god explained seeing as there was apparently a lot of it back in the Biblical times?

I would argue the opposite is true. Non-believers will never accept as an explanation that God intervened in anything.

OSH;1150866 wrote:I can't say that there have been many (if any) books removed from what we currently call the Bible.

The books that are included in the Bible are backed by finds, archaeology, and history. There are enough copies of the texts (those that are included in the Bible) to make our current text. Yes, it is compiled by men choosing the books to include, but those men had a reason behind their choices. Again, it was the amount of copies of the manuscripts found from EACH book to include in the Bible. There are many reasons why the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Mary (and others) were not included were because they were dated MUCH later than the others, there isn't as much evidence that they were legitimate (reliable, historical, or utilized), and the history of each did not qualify each to be included.

So, this may be troublesome to some (or many). I can understand the hesitations to "trust" such a book. Believers have faith and belief that God has blessed the authors, the writings, and the texts makes the Bible a sacred compilation of documents. The fact that there are MANY different authors of these documents dating back hundreds of years...all pointing toward a single God while also fulfilling prophecies...is tremendous.

I have more faith in this than any scientist that tries to date the earth with a +/- of 500 million years. I have more faith in this than a theory that says all these creatures came from primordial ooze evolving over 4.52 billion years (whoops, +/- 500 million years). I have more faith in our lives having meaning than I do in an accident on earth that happened to have life on it.

In your exclusive opinion, does God "talk" to people? Again, in your opinion only, how do you determine (just for yourself) who you think in genuinely in touch with God in a manner that you'd believe him/her if you were told "God told me this"?

Skyhook79;1150900 wrote:I would argue the opposite is true. Non-believers will never accept as an explanation that God intervened in anything.

Shame on us for demanding proof.

Skyhook79;1150900 wrote:I would argue the opposite is true. Non-believers will never accept as an explanation that God intervened in anything.

EVIDENCE!!!!

I Wear Pants;1150885 wrote:I guess the question many people have is do you have any logic based reasons to have that faith? Like, why do you not have as much or more skepticism when it comes to people saying a magical being (not trying to belittle, just it's a pretty accurate assessment of what the Christian god could be called) told them to write books, especially when some parts of the Bible are quite strange as you do in scientific theories that are built off of peer reviewed science and of which you can see the evidence of?

Also how is the lack of intervention by god explained seeing as there was apparently a lot of it back in the Biblical times?

No belittling taken. It's all good.

But, who's to say I don't have hesitations and second-thoughts about God? That's expected. That's how faith and love is strengthened. By education, by learning, by figuring things out. I wasn't raised in church. I became a believer right before I entered high school, so well into when I started developing my own thoughts and values -- but I will say that I was raised in a good home where quality values were already established.

I am a huge supporter of science. I have never discredited "science." I just don't like the age of the earth junk. It doesn't bother me that people want to support it. It doesn't bother me that people fight so hard to try to figure out. I just don't think we'll ever know.

I guess I would have more faith in MORE science if I thought it accomplished more...like ridding me of migraines!

BORIStheCrusher;1150889 wrote:The human race will eventually become extinct, as will the entire planet. So is the meaning that we are an experiment by God?

People have been saying that the world will be gone for 2000 years. We have no idea if or when that will happen. And, quite frankly, I won't be around to tell if the world is extinct or not.

I wouldn't view it as an experiment though. It is an opportunity to partake in God's creation.

enigmaax;1150895 wrote:Not sure what trickery, traps, or twisted words I've used. Mostly, I'm asking questions to try and understand your stance. I'm not out to prove you or anyone else wrong - I haven't made up my own mind. There are some things that I've yet to hear rationally explained, so I have an interest. If by twisting words you are referring to my "human qualities" post, I'm certainly interested in how you would explain the basic premises in a way that would make one interpret them differently.

I don't see any trickery, traps, or twisted words from you. I think you are asking very good questions. I think you are asking questions that should be asked. I certainly think they are questions that believers in God should be able to answer -- to some extent. I also do think there are some questions we'll never know the answers to, i.e., age of the world, why bad things happen to good people/why good things happen to bad people, etc. -- and I am fine with that.

We won't know everything. But as believers, we should not shy away from helping someone find answers to very important and pertinent questions.

Skyhook79;1150900 wrote:I would argue the opposite is true. Non-believers will never accept as an explanation that God intervened in anything.

I don't know. If the sky opened and a booming voice bellowed out that I needed to change shit up or face eternal damnation, I'd probably take that as a pretty good message.

At least it's better than the Bible with its: A long, long time ago, God was really involved in the lives of mortals, speaking to some of them directly and giving commandments and all that. And then we realized that people'd be like, "Whoa! None of that sort of stuff ever happens to real people in real life!", so we decided that God would use that whole Jesus-deal to decide to step back and not be all up in people's faces. SUCCESS!!!!! deal.

Skyhook79;1150873 wrote:enigmaax,y-town steelhound,sleeper and few others would have made outstanding Pharisee's back in Jesus day, the ones that tried trickery and trap people by twisting words and scripture.

LOL how many times would you have kissed jesus' feet back in "his" day?

enigmaax;1150901 wrote:In your exclusive opinion, does God "talk" to people? Again, in your opinion only, how do you determine (just for yourself) who you think in genuinely in touch with God in a manner that you'd believe him/her if you were told "God told me this"?

That's a great question.

This is one I probably wrestle with a lot. There are definitely times where I have asked God to show me something, give me an answer, or prayed for something specific. There are times where I have gotten an "answer" right away, others that take time, and others that have nothing come from them (like winning the MegaMillions...HA!).

The time that stands out that I wholeheartedly believe that God "talked" to me happen in 2004. I was in an awful school that I hated, and I "felt" like I was supposed to go into the ministry. I wrestled with this. I drove 3ish hours away and met with a family that I hardly knew. I just basically told them, "I just wish that God would tell me what I'm supposed to do with my life." Right after that, I went and got Chinese food with their daughters. No lie, the fortune cookie read, "You are the guiding star to His existence." Some would say that is just coincidence. Some would say I am stupid for thinking that that was God "talking" to me. But, I have no doubt in my mind it was an answer to my prayers, frustrations, and where I was supposed to head in life.

I do believe the Holy Spirit acts in us whenever we need to make a decision, question something, thought processes, and wherever we may be in life. I've had to make some decisions in the last 3ish years that would impact my life majorly -- marriage, moving, school, moving again, etc. In every decision, I confided in my family, wife, in-laws, and God. In every decision, I knew it was the right decision. Why? I think God helped lead and guide me.

Does God "talk" to me audibly, verbally, or in writing? I believe all are possible. Can I say I have "heard" God's voice...no. Can I say that I believe I understand when I am "supposed" to do something...yes. That may be the Holy Spirit weighing in on my heart and mind. That may be some sort of "revelation" to me (like the fortune cookie, however cheesy that may be). I do know, that since I got that fortune cookie...it was undoubtedly the RIGHT decision for me to change my path in life.

OSH;1150908 wrote:\
People have been saying that the world will be gone for 2000 years. We have no idea if it will happen.

.

LOL, when the sun starts dying the earth is going to be a pretty miserable place to live. Thats if we're here even that long.

I Wear Pants;1150907 wrote:EVIDENCE!!!!

sleeper;1150902 wrote:Shame on us for demanding proof.

It's called faith for a reason, fellas.

You two are just as fucking annoying as the doosh who shows up at my door every other month trying to save me.

fish82;1150927 wrote:It's called faith for a reason, fellas.

You two are just as fucking annoying as the doosh who shows up at my door every other month trying to save me.

So what is the reason for your faith? And why don't you have that same faith for any of the thousands of other religions that have existed?

Asking for some reasons why faith in Christianity (or other religions) should be had is a pretty reasonable question.

Sleeper is just being sleeper so I won't speak for him. But pmoney and OSH are being perfectly hospitable in answering questions and I'm trying to be respectful to people (note to people, I don't feel the need to be respectful to ideas. People deserve respect though). What is annoying is when people do what Skyhook does and just quote scripture at anyone who questions the validity of their religion/faith as if that would settle it. Doesn't help anything.

Edit: And the excuse of "it's called faith for a reason" is such a cop out, you still need reasons for believing something. Christians would be the first to dismiss a scientist or whoever that came up with a theory that they disliked and for evidence simply said he had "faith" that his claim was true. Religion is the only thing that we allow "faith" as an answer for "why?" to and I don't think that's right.

I Wear Pants;1150929 wrote:So what is the reason for your faith? And why don't you have that same faith for any of the thousands of other religions that have existed?

Asking for some reasons why faith in Christianity (or other religions) should be had is a pretty reasonable question.

Sleeper is just being sleeper so I won't speak for him. But pmoney and OSH are being perfectly hospitable in answering questions and I'm trying to be respectful to people (note to people, I don't feel the need to be respectful to ideas. People deserve respect though). What is annoying is when people do what Skyhook does and just quote scripture at anyone who questions the validity of their religion/faith as if that would settle it. Doesn't help anything.

because skyhook is a troll and has no real reason why he believes what he believes. Him quoting the bible is like trying to find the definition of a word and the dictionary uses the same word you're looking for as the definition, it's explains nothing, just like skyhook.

BORIStheCrusher;1150926 wrote:LOL, when the sun starts dying the earth is going to be a pretty miserable place to live. Thats if we're here even that long.

Well, the sun has been dying for how many years now?

I won't be around. I'll be extinct by the time the world is "over." I won't worry much about when/if the world is through.

fish82;1150927 wrote:It's called faith for a reason, fellas.

You two are just as ****ing annoying as the doosh who shows up at my door every other month trying to save me.

Mormon or Jehovah's Witnesses? I never get lucky enough to talk with either of them. The last time a Jehovah's Witness stopped by, it was some 7-year-old boy...I'm not going to invite him in for lemonade and talk to him about theology. That's just wrong. What's even more wrong is the mom or dad sends him out to do their dirty work.

The kid couldn't even talk he was so nervous.

I Wear Pants;1150929 wrote:So what is the reason for your faith? And why don't you have that same faith for any of the thousands of other religions that have existed?

Asking for some reasons why faith in Christianity (or other religions) should be had is a pretty reasonable question.

Sleeper is just being sleeper so I won't speak for him. But pmoney and OSH are being perfectly hospitable in answering questions and I'm trying to be respectful to people (note to people, I don't feel the need to be respectful to ideas. People deserve respect though). What is annoying is when people do what Skyhook does and just quote scripture at anyone who questions the validity of their religion/faith as if that would settle it. Doesn't help anything.

Got that right. Should be a good question with some meat behind the answer(s).

jmog;1150869 wrote:No it didn't. Just because Dan Brown said so doesnt make it true.

Can't say I remember mentioning anything about Dan Brown...I don't even read his books. However if you're looking for a popular culture reference the movie Stigmata would've been more accurate. Happy to help shoot down your argument though!