Al Bundy;1002995 wrote:So the MAC schools make up a little over 1% of the schools in Ohio playing football, but have over 16% of the championships in the last 20 years. According to the logic of some on here, they must have an unfair advantage. Or could it be that they have developed great programs that kids want to be a part of.

Congrats to the MAC. I always enjoy watching those teams play in the state tournament, and they are the best small school conference in the state.

Obviously, because the MAC has won far more than their share of State Titles, we should move every team in the conference up at least 1 Division... 2 Divisions if they are a private school that can recruit from a cow pasture outside their district, and 3 Divisions if they have won more than 3 State Titles in the past ten years... Before you know it, the MAC will be the only high school conference in America that is forced to play against Div II colleges to get their Harbin points... (LOL)

Al Bundy;1003039 wrote:But why are the MAC schools so much better?

If you live in MAC land you already know.

1) The kids are very big.
2) The coaches are outstanding
3) The majority of students in every class are on the team.
4) Community support outstanding.
5) No outside distractions like soccer and it's the cool thing to do to be on a team.
6) D-6 and D-5 are very weak with few teams that actually are any good at all.

If your not from this area, see for yourself. Spend a week here and take a tour.

If you are from here, spend a season watching other non mac D-6 schools, most are not very good.

Bigdogg;1003095 wrote:If you live in MAC land you already know.

1) The kids are very big.
2) The coaches are outstanding
3) The majority of students in every class are on the team.
4) Community support outstanding.
5) No outside distractions like soccer and it's the cool thing to do to be on a team.

If your not from this area, see for yourself. Spend a week here and take a tour.

If you are from here, spend a season watching other non mac D-6 schools, most are not very good.

I agree with the points that mention about why MAC schools are good. Those points are also why teams in other parts of the state are good as well. Why is there a need to "fix" the system when other teams that have those same traits are winning but it isn't a problem when the MAC schools are doing it?

Al Bundy;1003130 wrote:I agree with the points that mention about why MAC schools are good. Those points are also why teams in other parts of the state are good as well. Why is there a need to "fix" the system when other teams that have those same traits are winning but it isn't a problem when the MAC schools are doing it?

The system I want to fix is the way schools are determined to fit in classes. I am not sure why you bring in MAC schools to the discussion other than St. Johns which should never play in D-6. They are a private school with a selective enrollment. I don't have a problem with success.

If DSJ was bumped up to DV it would have been a battle between them and CW to make it to the finals. If DSJ had made it to play Kirtland it would have been a big time battle. I think Kirtland may pull it out but it woulda been a slobberknocker!

Bigdogg;1003095 wrote:If you live in MAC land you already know.

1) The kids are very big.
2) The coaches are outstanding
3) The majority of students in every class are on the team.
4) Community support outstanding.
5) No outside distractions like soccer and it's the cool thing to do to be on a team.
6) D-6 and D-5 are very weak with few teams that actually are any good at all.

If your not from this area, see for yourself. Spend a week here and take a tour.

If you are from here, spend a season watching other non mac D-6 schools, most are not very good.

Bigdogg;1003261 wrote:The system I want to fix is the way schools are determined to fit in classes. I am not sure why you bring in MAC schools to the discussion other than St. Johns which should never play in D-6. They are a private school with a selective enrollment. I don't have a problem with success.

Why should DSJ not be in Div VI? We are successful for the exact reasons you listed for MAC teams. We are no more successful than any other MAC school yet you want to treat us differently. Why can't DSJ be successful for the same reasons Marion Local, St. Henry, Versailles, Coldwater, etc... are successful?

Delphosfan;1003299 wrote:Why should DSJ not be in Div VI? We are successful for the exact reasons you listed for MAC teams. We are no more successful than any other MAC school yet you want to treat us differently. Why can't DSJ be successful for the same reasons Marion Local, St. Henry, Versailles, Coldwater, etc... are successful?

How many multi handycapped students are enrolled at St. Johns?

Bigdogg;1003369 wrote:How many multi handycapped students are enrolled at St. Johns?

And that is relevant to football how? How many are enrolled at Marion Local? Coldwater? Versailles?

Bigdogg;1003369 wrote:How many multi handycapped students are enrolled at St. Johns?

You act like there are thousands of kids that are handicapped at the public schools. I taught at public schools for 8 years, and I could count on a single hand the number of kids who had a physical handicap that was so bad that it prevented them from participating in sports.

Delphosfan;1003555 wrote:And that is relevant to football how? How many are enrolled at Marion Local? Coldwater? Versailles?

Look at the ODE website and find out for yourself. The number ranges between 12-20%. It's relevant because those kids are counted in the number to determine what division you are placed in. Add 12% to Delphos St. John's number of students and what division are they now in?

At Marion Local, according to the ODE report 9.8% are disabled. Shadyside is listed 15.6% and Delphos Jefferson is listed as 12.6 Look under disability status here:


http://ilrc.ode.state.oh.us/Downloads.asp

Bigdogg, I understand what you are saying.

Bottom line is this... A public school cannot pick and choose the kids that walk in their doors. They cannot deny anyone who applies (outside of open enrollment) b/c there is no application process. A private school... well, you get the picture. They can pick the kids they want. That doesn't mean that a private school does not accept special needs kids. It's just a fact that, in the scenario, one school does not HAVE to admit everyone, and one DOES.

Al Bundy;1003558 wrote:You act like there are thousands of kids that are handicapped at the public schools. I taught at public schools for 8 years, and I could count on a single hand the number of kids who had a physical handicap that was so bad that it prevented them from participating in sports.

Like I said many do participate in sports. As for the number, if you actually did teach you should know how to look up each school's number of disabled students on the ODE website. It is public information.

ernest_t_bass;1004053 wrote:Bigdogg, I understand what you are saying.

Bottom line is this... A public school cannot pick and choose the kids that walk in their doors. They cannot deny anyone who applies (outside of open enrollment) b/c there is no application process. A private school... well, you get the picture. They can pick the kids they want. That doesn't mean that a private school does not accept special needs kids. It's just a fact that, in the scenario, one school does not HAVE to admit everyone, and one DOES.

Yep, and the OHSAA determining which division a school is placed in by the count of bodies 9-11 walking through the hall no longer makes any sense at all.

Bigdogg;1004081 wrote:Like I said many do participate in sports. As for the number, if you actually did teach you should know how to look up each school's number of disabled students on the ODE website. It is public information.

If they participate in a sport, why shouldn't they be included in the count? Schools report high numbers because of the funding associated with special ed. If think 20% of the students have a handicap that prevents them from participating in sports, you must not have spent time in very many schools.

Al Bundy;1004100 wrote:If they participate in a sport, why shouldn't they be included in the count? Schools report high numbers because of the funding associated with special ed. If think 20% of the students have a handicap that prevents them from participating in sports, you must not have spent time in very many schools.

I really wish you would read the thread before you type. I never said not to count all the muliti handicapped students. I said to come up with a weighed value to take them into consideration. Do yourself a favor and do a little research. You would be very surprised how many multi handicapped students there are in Columbus and Cleveland public schools.

I asked how many were at St. Johns? It's an easy question why don't someone "in the know" answer? Private school do not have to give that data to ODE.

Bigdogg;1004147 wrote:I really wish you would read the thread before you type. I never said not to count all the muliti handicapped students. I said to come up with a weighed value to take them into consideration. Do yourself a favor and do a little research. You would be very surprised how many multi handicapped students there are in Columbus and Cleveland public schools.

I asked how many were at St. Johns? It's an easy question why don't someone "in the know" answer? Private school do not have to give that data to ODE.

I wish you would learn to read. It has already been explained to you that those districts often claim kids as handicapped because they get extra funding. There is no way that 20% of those students have handicaps that prevent them from playing football. The numbers that the districts put out includes questionable things such as ADD. It is easy to claim those things because they are subjective, but the school can use those to collect extra funds.

Bigdogg;1004045 wrote:Look at the ODE website and find out for yourself. The number ranges between 12-20%. It's relevant because those kids are counted in the number to determine what division you are placed in. Add 12% to Delphos St. John's number of students and what division are they now in?

So 12-20% of the kids at Marion Local are handicapped? What exactly is considered a "handicap"? I'm guessing the state's definition is way different than mine

Add 12% to DSJ's enrollment and they are now in......... Div VI.

Al Bundy;1004170 wrote:I wish you would learn to read. It has already been explained to you that those districts often claim kids as handicapped because they get extra funding. There is no way that 20% of those students have handicaps that prevent them from playing football. The numbers that the districts put out includes questionable things such as ADD. It is easy to claim those things because they are subjective, but the school can use those to collect extra funds.

You mean that you have actual knowledge that some school administrators are committing a felony by fraudulently labeling non handicapped students handycapped to obtain more funding? Please list names so this can be investigated promptly.

Delphosfan;1004268 wrote:So 12-20% of the kids at Marion Local are handicapped? What exactly is considered a "handicap"? I'm guessing the state's definition is way different than mine

Add 12% to DSJ's enrollment and they are now in......... Div VI.

Not sure what you definition is but here is the state of Ohio.

(D) “Special needs scholarship program” has the same meaning as the Jon Peterson special
needs scholarship program established in section 3310.52 of the Revised Code.
(E) “Category one” child is a child who has been identified with a disability of speech or language
impairment as defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(xi).
(F) “Category two” child is a child who has been identified as specific learning disabled as that
term is defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(x), developmentally delayed as that term is defined in
rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(c), or other health impairment-minor as defined in section 3317.02 of
the Revised Code.
(G) “Category three” child is a child who has been identified as vision impaired as that term is
defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(xiii), hearing impaired as that term is defined in rule 3301-
51-01(B)(10)(vi) or a child who has been identified as severe behavior disabled as that term is
defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(v).
(H) “Category four” child is a child who has been identified with an orthopedic impairment as
that term is defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(viii) or having a other health impairment-major,
as defined in section 3317.02 of the Revised Code.
(I) “Category five” child is a child who has been identified with multiple disabilities as that term is
defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(vii).
(J) “Category six” child is a child who has been identified as autistic as that term is defined in
rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(i), as having traumatic brain injuries as that term is defined in rule
3301-51-01(B)(10)(xii), or as deaf-blind as that term is defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(iii).
(K) “Entitled to attend school” means entitled to attend school in a school district under section
3313.64 or 3313.65 of the Revised Code.

Whats yours?

As far as what classification DSJ would be in under my proposal all the school's numbers would change so to add 12% under the current ones would not necessary keep DSJ in D-6. Furthermore I proposed no private school be D-6 unless granted a waiver. I am sure you would agree that D-5 would be a lot more fair for the smallest non selective public schools. DSJ just might have to work a little harder to win a state championship

Beat a dead horse! dsj should not be isolated! marion local and coldwater as well as other Mac schools have had great success and they are public,why isolate Dsj in your proposal. I'm a football fan period! whether a school is public or private school, i enjoy coaching and watching ohio football. Each player has all the opportunities to get better. Hit the weight room,film room and The coaches hit the clinics. This whole problem started when participation trophies were given out. our society is soft and the constant crying that its not fair and team A should be playing here, is a result that failure is no longer used as a tool to achieve better results. Let's just give all the kids a state championship participation trophy so no one has to earn it. I'm sure that'll make everyone happy!

landshark0731;1004524 wrote:Beat a dead horse! dsj should not be isolated! marion local and coldwater as well as other Mac schools have had great success and they are public,why isolate Dsj in your proposal. I'm a football fan period! whether a school is public or private school, i enjoy coaching and watching ohio football. Each player has all the opportunities to get better. Hit the weight room,film room and The coaches hit the clinics. This whole problem started when participation trophies were given out. our society is soft and the constant crying that its not fair and team A should be playing here, is a result that failure is no longer used as a tool to achieve better results. Let's just give all the kids a state championship participation trophy so no one has to earn it. I'm sure that'll make everyone happy!

Well said!! 100% agree with this statement. We are a society where even "little Johnny" should get a chance too...sad!

Just tell "little Johnny" to get better!!! Or tell his parents that "Johnny" just really isn't cut out to be an athlete!

Marion Local and DSJ are basically twins of each other in every way. Except everyone loves the one twin and hates the other. Look at the beating DSJ took for beating Shadyside bad last year, and look at the thread of Marion's state title this year.

Bigdogg;1004449 wrote:Not sure what you definition is but here is the state of Ohio.

(D) “Special needs scholarship program” has the same meaning as the Jon Peterson special
needs scholarship program established in section 3310.52 of the Revised Code.
(E) “Category one” child is a child who has been identified with a disability of speech or language
impairment as defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(xi).
(F) “Category two” child is a child who has been identified as specific learning disabled as that
term is defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(x), developmentally delayed as that term is defined in
rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(c), or other health impairment-minor as defined in section 3317.02 of
the Revised Code.
(G) “Category three” child is a child who has been identified as vision impaired as that term is
defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(xiii), hearing impaired as that term is defined in rule 3301-
51-01(B)(10)(vi) or a child who has been identified as severe behavior disabled as that term is
defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(v).
(H) “Category four” child is a child who has been identified with an orthopedic impairment as
that term is defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(viii) or having a other health impairment-major,
as defined in section 3317.02 of the Revised Code.
(I) “Category five” child is a child who has been identified with multiple disabilities as that term is
defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(vii).
(J) “Category six” child is a child who has been identified as autistic as that term is defined in
rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(i), as having traumatic brain injuries as that term is defined in rule
3301-51-01(B)(10)(xii), or as deaf-blind as that term is defined in rule 3301-51-01(B)(10)(iii).
(K) “Entitled to attend school” means entitled to attend school in a school district under section
3313.64 or 3313.65 of the Revised Code.

Whats yours?

As far as what classification DSJ would be in under my proposal all the school's numbers would change so to add 12% under the current ones would not necessary keep DSJ in D-6. Furthermore I proposed no private school be D-6 unless granted a waiver. I am sure you would agree that D-5 would be a lot more fair for the smallest non selective public schools. DSJ just might have to work a little harder to win a state championship

After reading that, I was apparently handicapped as well and still am. Hmmm, I had no idea.

I'm guessing that using those definitions of "handicapped", DSJ has a number of handicapped students enrolled right now.

Delphosfan;1004932 wrote:After reading that, I was apparently handicapped as well and still am. Hmmm, I had no idea.

I'm guessing that using those definitions of "handicapped", DSJ has a number of handicapped students enrolled right now.

Right, I am sure they do

There's things teams have control over (training, coaching, facilities, etc) and things they don't (how many students attend their school, where they come from, etc). The things they don't have control over should be factored into the equation.

Currently, there's three school setups, pretend each school has 195 male 9-11 students:

1. Schools that start out with 195 number of students and that's it.
2. Schools that start out with X number of students adding or subtracting OE in or out to equal 195.
3. Schools that start out with 0 students and add 195 students via marketing to them to come join their school for whatever reason.

Yet, we use number of students as the deciding factor in bracketing teams for competitive purposes.