Cleveland Indians Hot Stove---2011-2012

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jordo212000

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Jan 30, 2012 2:50 PM
Crimson streak;1070215 wrote:So what have the rays won?

Question: do you consider St. Louis to be a big market team?
Jan 30, 2012 2:50pm
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BR1986FB

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Jan 30, 2012 2:54 PM
jordo212000;1070230 wrote:Question: do you consider St. Louis to be a big market team?
St Louis is supposedly a smaller market than Cleveland.
Jan 30, 2012 2:54pm
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

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Jan 30, 2012 2:54 PM
St Louis is considered a small market team. Where is AP playing now?
Jan 30, 2012 2:54pm
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like_that

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Jan 30, 2012 2:55 PM
jordo212000;1070184 wrote:Teams get millions from revenue sharing and there is no rule on how much they can spend. Nothing stops Cleveland or Pittsburgh from getting major free agents except for owners who care more about their bottom line than they do about winning.

You're attacking the wrong strawman.

Even if you choose not to spend big boy money, you can still win consistently. Draft well, have live arms, and develop your talent (Tampa Bay Rays)
You are desperately grasping onto the Rays (not to mention it took an epic collapse by the sox to even get in the playoffs this year). Did you forget how shitty they were for a long period of time? The Rays success will not continue. When it comes to small market teams like the rays the phrase "window of opporunity" is used quite often. You don't hear that phrase used with the big money guys, now do you? You are also forgetting to mention all the star players the Rays brought up, only to see them leave for big market teams.

The Rays are very similar to the A's of the early 2000's. Look where the A's are now.

It's beyond me as a Reds fan why you would be opposed to a salary cap.
Jan 30, 2012 2:55pm
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jordo212000

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Jan 30, 2012 2:58 PM
royal_k;1070236 wrote:St Louis is considered a small market team. Where is AP playing now?

Are free agents not allowed to go where they want? It isn't 1976 anymore. The Cardinals gave Pujols a mega offer and it didn't work out. It wasn't like they threw their arms up and waved a white flag after the season ended. Don't forget Miami also made him a very handsome offer

I asked about St. Louis because they are a smaller market team and they just won the World Series
Jan 30, 2012 2:58pm
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royal_k

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Jan 30, 2012 3:01 PM
Tampa Bay drafted in the top 5 for a number of years. The players they have now are a result not being competitive during those years. When they reach the end of their original contracts, they won't be able to sign all of them to their next contracts. A number of these players will be playing for Boston, the Yankees, etc.

Look at KC. They have a bunch of very good position players that resulted from drafting near the top every year. You think these players will still be there when their contracts are up?
Jan 30, 2012 3:01pm
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BR1986FB

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Jan 30, 2012 3:02 PM
jordo212000;1070249 wrote:I asked about St. Louis because they are a smaller market team and they just won the World Series
They also had the best player in baseball, who has moved on for more money, under contract. The Tribe of the 90's had that same "window" too. Bunch of good young players, under contract, but as soon as those contracts expired, they were gone to larger markets. The larger market teams are going to gobble up that talent 9x's out of 10.
Jan 30, 2012 3:02pm
jordo212000's avatar

jordo212000

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Jan 30, 2012 3:03 PM
like_that;1070240 wrote:You are desperately grasping onto the Rays (not to mention it took an epic collapse by the sox to even get in the playoffs this year). Did you forget how shitty they were for a long period of time? The Rays success will not continue. When it comes to small market teams like the rays the phrase "window of opporunity" is used quite often. You don't hear that phrase used with the big money guys, now do you? You are also forgetting to mention all the star players the Rays brought up, only to see them leave for big market teams.

The Rays are very similar to the A's of the early 2000's. Look where the A's are now.

It's beyond me as a Reds fan why you would be opposed to a salary cap.

You said the Rays were going away last year and were wrong. I was correct about them. I think they'll be in contention again this season. We'll see how your prediction works out.

I don't see the need for a salary cap as a Reds fan. At the end of the day, I see and call things like I see them. I can take the emotion out of it. Baseball has parity and small market teams continue to have success.

You keep talking about how the Rays will fade away, and royal K just asked about Pujols leaving a World Series champion. Isn't that the definition of parity? Good teams losing their players and being replaced in the playoffs by teams who were not in the playoffs last year?
Jan 30, 2012 3:03pm
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jordo212000

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Jan 30, 2012 3:06 PM
royal_k;1070256 wrote:Tampa Bay drafted in the top 5 for a number of years. The players they have now are a result not being competitive during those years. When they reach the end of their original contracts, they won't be able to sign all of them to their next contracts. A number of these players will be playing for Boston, the Yankees, etc.

Look at KC. They have a bunch of very good position players that resulted from drafting near the top every year. You think these players will still be there when their contracts are up?

Go look at the facts. They have already lost a ton of those guys and have replaced them with new. This is the second wave

Garza, Crawford, Kazmir, Pena (gone and now returned), Hamilton, etc. Were all from the years when they sucked. They developed that talent, guys left and they replaced them.
Jan 30, 2012 3:06pm
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jordo212000

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Jan 30, 2012 3:08 PM
BR1986FB;1070258 wrote:They also had the best player in baseball, who has moved on for more money, under contract. The Tribe of the 90's had that same "window" too. Bunch of good young players, under contract, but as soon as those contracts expired, they were gone to larger markets. The larger market teams are going to gobble up that talent 9x's out of 10.

This is the free agent era. Guys are free to take big money. It's part of professional sports. Nobody should be forced to live in Cleveland or Buffalo if they choose not to.

However, in baseball teams like Cleveland and Miami are free to throw the checkbook at players. Miami did this year. Cleveland continues to choose not to. That isn't baseball's problem. Instead of wanting a salary cap, the real thing you should want is a salary floor
Jan 30, 2012 3:08pm
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BR1986FB

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Jan 30, 2012 3:12 PM
jordo212000;1070271 wrote: However, in baseball teams like Cleveland and Miami are free to throw the checkbook at players. Miami did this year. Cleveland continues to choose not to. That isn't baseball's problem. Instead of wanting a salary cap, the real thing you should want is a salary floor
Doesn't Miami have a shitload of money coming in from a new stadium?
Jan 30, 2012 3:12pm
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royal_k

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Jan 30, 2012 3:12 PM
The fact is, small market teams can't compete with large market teams for high end players. It's been happening since FA started. It won't change until there's a cap.
Jan 30, 2012 3:12pm
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Heretic

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Jan 30, 2012 3:12 PM
like_that;1070240 wrote:It's beyond me as a Reds fan why you would be opposed to a salary cap.
Indeed. Especially when you consider the window of opportunity argument. They traded a good number of prospects to get some guys who put them into the playoffs before Votto (and possibly/probably Phillips) inevitably leaves.
Jan 30, 2012 3:12pm
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BR1986FB

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Jan 30, 2012 3:15 PM
Heretic;1070280 wrote:Indeed. Especially when you consider the window of opportunity argument. They traded a good number of prospects to get some guys who put them into the playoffs before Votto (and possibly/probably Phillips) inevitably leaves.
I'd just be happy if the Tribe's owner got eaten by a bear that was pissed off from being the recipient of the infamous "bear dick punch."
Jan 30, 2012 3:15pm
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jordo212000

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Jan 30, 2012 3:30 PM
royal_k;1070279 wrote:The fact is, small market teams can't compete with large market teams for high end players. It's been happening since FA started. It won't change until there's a cap.

Who cares? It's already been proven over and over again you can win a World Series without going on a free agent shopping spree.
Jan 30, 2012 3:30pm
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jordo212000

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Jan 30, 2012 3:32 PM
Heretic;1070280 wrote:Indeed. Especially when you consider the window of opportunity argument. They traded a good number of prospects to get some guys who put them into the playoffs before Votto (and possibly/probably Phillips) inevitably leaves.

Actually Phillips will probably be the team for a while. They have been talking extension

No clue on Votto. Reds will make an effort, but at the end of the day he can ultimately choose where he is going to play. As he should be able to. Probably Toronto?
Jan 30, 2012 3:32pm
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jordo212000

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Jan 30, 2012 3:34 PM
BR1986FB;1070277 wrote:Doesn't Miami have a shitload of money coming in from a new stadium?

That.. Or they have a ton of money saved up from not spending it over the past 10 years.

Indians have a relatively new stadium that is beautiful. The stadium or lack of a new one is not effecting the Indians ability to win
Jan 30, 2012 3:34pm
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Heretic

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Jan 30, 2012 3:53 PM
jordo212000;1070320 wrote:Actually Phillips will probably be the team for a while. They have been talking extension

No clue on Votto. Reds will make an effort, but at the end of the day he can ultimately choose where he is going to play. As he should be able to. Probably Toronto?
I wasn't sure on Phillips. If they get him to stay, that's definitely a good thing for them.

Part of the problem with low-rent teams, though, is just bad luck. As in that you can't afford to have big moves go bad. I don't think many people thought things like how Sizemore would become as brittle as Greg Oden and that Hafner would completely fall off the face of the Earth power-wise back when they were signed to big deals. But that's what happened.
Jan 30, 2012 3:53pm
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grodt

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Jan 30, 2012 5:49 PM
BR1986FB;1069765 wrote:I had heard that once contracts are up, in either 2013 or 2014 the Tribes estimated payroll will be something like $2 or $3 million?
As of right now, if the Indians decline Hafner and Fausto's options (almost 100% chance of this) in 2013 then they will have 1 guy potentially under contract (Ubaldo). Now I wouldn't be surprised if they try to work out a deal with Asdrubal for multiple years that would also add to this. On top of that a bunch of current players will still be arbitration eligible so they'll still be here. So while we technically don't have many salary obligations for 2013 and beyond, that will change as guys get arbitration money and extensions.
Jan 30, 2012 5:49pm
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like_that

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Jan 30, 2012 6:42 PM
Heretic;1070353 wrote:I wasn't sure on Phillips. If they get him to stay, that's definitely a good thing for them.

Part of the problem with low-rent teams, though, is just bad luck. As in that you can't afford to have big moves go bad. I don't think many people thought things like how Sizemore would become as brittle as Greg Oden and that Hafner would completely fall off the face of the Earth power-wise back when they were signed to big deals. But that's what happened.
This. Jordo is too blind to realize this. Look at the Red Sox and JD Drew. All that money they threw at him. The Red Sox could afford for that move to not work out. If it was a team like the Tribe, Pirates, Reds, etc that franchise would be set back a few years. Just like you pointed out, Hafner's contract is killing the tribe. No one knew when he was pwning pronkville that he would be made out of glass in the near future. Any other big market team could survive that contract.


Also, just as I said earlier turdo, the Rays made the playoffs due to probably one of the biggest collapses in baseball history by the sox. I didn't see you flapping your mouth until the Rays made the playoffs. If you are going to act like a hardass because you finally got ONE prediction right, at least stick to your predictions instead of going into hiding when things aren't going your way. I guess I shouldn't expect much from a Bengals fan, since all they do is go in hiding when their team sucks.
Jan 30, 2012 6:42pm
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hoops23

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Jan 30, 2012 8:43 PM
jordo212000;1070326 wrote:That.. Or they have a ton of money saved up from not spending it over the past 10 years.

Indians have a relatively new stadium that is beautiful. The stadium or lack of a new one is not effecting the Indians ability to win
LOL, it's not that new. When the Jake first opened is right about the time the Indians payroll jumped. That's just how it works. You can't use the stadium as an excuse to get money now.

Similar to Minnesota and Miami now. New stadiums and the teams are able to splurge a lot more on players. Soon, the aura of the stadiums will dissipate and the funds won't be there any longer, forcing them to spend similarly as before the stadiums.

And there isn't as much parity as you'd like to believe. Teams like the Red Sox and Yankees (who have a combined 34 WS titles) will ALWAYS be there because they can spend money.

The parity comes in play when teams like the Indians fall back from the 90's allowing other teams to step in their place. When the Tribe fell out, Chicago and Minnesota took advantage. Then Detroit came back to prominence. That's where the parity comes into play, because other small-mid market teams can't stay relevant for more than a few years at a time.

I mean, wasn't there a movie just made about the absurd spending by major market teams? Small market clubs have to go against the 8-ball to try and stay competitive for the most part. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

A salary cap, one that is done right, would greatly boost interest in baseball. It would bring more parity IMO.

Also, again, St Louis may be a small market, but they are a BASEBALL TOWN. The fans pack that stadium everyday and they reap major merchandise and advertising dollars because of the popularity of that team down there.
Jan 30, 2012 8:43pm
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Footwedge

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Jan 30, 2012 11:15 PM
jordo212000;1070162 wrote:I don't think it is worth arguing with him. How can I take him seriously when he didn't even know that revenue sharing is alive and well in baseball? It is nobody's fault that certain organizations are mismanaged or are not spending that cash windfall wisely
Huh? The new CBA has in fact taken a step in the right direction. So....for the past one year, baseball has in fact implemented "revenue sharing". But....31% is hardly 80% that you see in the NFLand have s\een in the NFL for decades and decades.....and...give it 5 years or so before you make the claim that "revenue sharing is alive and well in baseball".
Jan 30, 2012 11:15pm
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grodt

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Jan 31, 2012 10:15 AM
[LEFT]Indians acquire Russ Canzler from the Rays for cash considerations. He was the International League MVP last season. He's a bit older (25) than most prospects but has shown a propensity for some power and can play OF and 1B. Last years slash line was .314/.401/.530 with 18 HR and 83 RBI. He takes Carmona's spot on the roster. Overall I like the move. At worst he's good AAA depth but I could see him competing for some playing time at 1B.
[/LEFT]
Jan 31, 2012 10:15am
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grodt

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Jan 31, 2012 10:34 AM
My only trepidation is that he comes from the Rays who rely on their own players to compete.
Jan 31, 2012 10:34am
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BR1986FB

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Jan 31, 2012 10:35 AM
grodt;1071076 wrote:[LEFT]Indians acquire Russ Canzler from the Rays for cash considerations. He was the International League MVP last season. He's a bit older (25) than most prospects but has shown a propensity for some power and can play OF and 1B. Last years slash line was .314/.401/.530 with 18 HR and 83 RBI. He takes Carmona's spot on the roster. Overall I like the move. At worst he's good AAA depth but I could see him competing for some playing time at 1B.
[/LEFT]
http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2012/01/31/indians-make-deal-with-rays-for-infof-russ-canzler/
Jan 31, 2012 10:35am