Cleveland Indians Hot Stove---2011-2012

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like_that

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26,625 posts
Jan 26, 2012 8:52 AM
TBone14;1066068 wrote:Huge upgrade?

2011

BA- .299 38 HR 120RBI 30 doubles OBP- .390 106K
BA- .330 12 HR 107RBI 40 doubles OBP- .380 51 K

Obvious which player is which. I think Prince will lose a couple home runs going to Comerica but many of those will lead to extra doubles. But that isn't such a huge upgrade where the Tigers are now favorites to win the World Series like many are saying. They were probably going to win the Central anyways.

Then there is always the whole going from the NL to the AL factor. Aside from Adrian Gonzalez..most guys see a little drop off going from the NL to the AL. Prince probably played 50 games vs the Pirates, Astros and Cubs last year. 3 of the worst teams in baseball. Arguably, the worst team in the Central this year will be the White Sox. He is going to face some stiffer competition this year. I'm not crowning the Tigers yet.

You are down by a run with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th...bases loaded. Do you want Prince or Victor at the dish?

I choose Victor.
Reps.

As I said earlier, the Fielder signing is not world ending. NOW, if Vmart was playing, then it would be a different story.
Jan 26, 2012 8:52am
like_that's avatar

like_that

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Jan 26, 2012 8:53 AM
BR1986FB;1065979 wrote:So Munch Bishop (WKNR) seems to think they have a legit shot at Cespedes. Anyone hearing anything?
Well, we know the Tigers are out of the running now. Im sure Dolan will come in another close second to get him though. Even if we win the bid, we don't even know if this guy will produce at the MLB level.
Jan 26, 2012 8:53am
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BR1986FB

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24,104 posts
Jan 26, 2012 9:03 AM
like_that;1066081 wrote:Well, we know the Tigers are out of the running now. Im sure Dolan will come in another close second to get him though. Even if we win the bid, we don't even know if this guy will produce at the MLB level.
I asked Munch where he was hearing this because the Yankees supposedly dropped out of the race when they heard his asking proce was $30-50 million. No way Daddy NoBucks shells out that type of coin.

Somebody said "Dolan isn't going after him...he's too cheap" and Munch, in his usual homer way, told the guy to "go root for hockey." I ripped on Dolan on one of Munch's Facebook questions and he called me out on the radio, reading the post, telling me to "move out of Cleveland." He's such a homer.
Jan 26, 2012 9:03am
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

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4,423 posts
Jan 26, 2012 9:59 AM
Cespedes would be a big pick up, as would Oswalt. If they could somehow land those 2, they narrow the gap significantly with the kitties.
Jan 26, 2012 9:59am
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

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4,423 posts
Jan 26, 2012 12:28 PM
He says they can't compete with teams for the 20 mill a year players. How about the 10 mill a year players. Sign someone of significance and people will fill the seats, and you'll be able to pay higher salaries.
Jan 26, 2012 12:28pm
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BR1986FB

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24,104 posts
Jan 26, 2012 12:34 PM
royal_k;1066385 wrote:He says they can't compete with teams for the 20 mill a year players. How about the 10 mill a year players. Sign someone of significance and people will fill the seats, and you'll be able to pay higher salaries.
The "small market" stuff is bullshit. I heard yesterday that Minneapolis (Twins) and St Louis (Cardinals) are technically smaller markets.
Jan 26, 2012 12:34pm
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

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4,423 posts
Jan 26, 2012 12:46 PM
BR1986FB;1066393 wrote:The "small market" stuff is bullshit. I heard yesterday that Minneapolis (Twins) and St Louis (Cardinals) are technically smaller markets.
Yeah, they are considered "small market". Thus, St. Louis not being able to sign AP. They sell out every game. You know they're making money, and had the resources to sign him.
Jan 26, 2012 12:46pm
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BR1986FB

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24,104 posts
Jan 26, 2012 1:00 PM
Crimson streak;1066425 wrote:All I got out of that was "im content in being shitty and making money off the team then actually winning"
I think that is the slogan on the Dolan family crest.
Jan 26, 2012 1:00pm
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IggyPride00

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6,482 posts
Jan 26, 2012 2:52 PM
As far as how the deal came together: Ilitch pretty much admitted that the idea was his, and it was inspired by the loss of Victor Martinez for the year.
Dolan needs to sell the team.

I was following the Fielder press conference, and Ilitch said the deal was his idea.

No talk of long term payroll flexibility, or market size or how the team will likely lose money because of it.

His first concern was wanting to win, even if it meant losing money.

Why does Dolan insist on torturing this city when he knows he doesn't have that type of commitment to the team or fans? Let someone else who really cares buy the team.
Jan 26, 2012 2:52pm
Mulva's avatar

Mulva

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13,650 posts
Jan 26, 2012 3:05 PM
BR1986FB;1066393 wrote:The "small market" stuff is bullshit. I heard yesterday that Minneapolis (Twins) and St Louis (Cardinals) are technically smaller markets.
Minnesota can only afford the payroll they have now because of the new stadium. Same with Florida/Miami now.
Jan 26, 2012 3:05pm
hoops23's avatar

hoops23

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15,696 posts
Jan 26, 2012 3:23 PM
Yes, before the stadium Minny was making similar decisions as the Indians, they just had a bit more competent FO making them and a much better manager running the team.

St Louis is a baseball town, so even if they are a smaller market, they have a lot of resources.
Jan 26, 2012 3:23pm
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OQB

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6,679 posts
Jan 26, 2012 5:26 PM
We need a true competitive baseball fan that just so happens to be a millionaire buy this team (ie: Dan Gilbert, Mark Cuban).....instead we have a selfish millionaire who just looks out for his bank account than winning baseball games for the fans.
Jan 26, 2012 5:26pm
F

Footwedge

Senior Member

9,265 posts
Jan 27, 2012 12:48 AM
TBone14;1066068 wrote:Huge upgrade?

2011

BA- .299 38 HR 120RBI 30 doubles OBP- .390 106K
BA- .330 12 HR 107RBI 40 doubles OBP- .380 51 K

Obvious which player is which. I think Prince will lose a couple home runs going to Comerica but many of those will lead to extra doubles. But that isn't such a huge upgrade where the Tigers are now favorites to win the World Series like many are saying. They were probably going to win the Central anyways.

Then there is always the whole going from the NL to the AL factor. Aside from Adrian Gonzalez..most guys see a little drop off going from the NL to the AL. Prince probably played 50 games vs the Pirates, Astros and Cubs last year. 3 of the worst teams in baseball. Arguably, the worst team in the Central this year will be the White Sox. He is going to face some stiffer competition this year. I'm not crowning the Tigers yet.

You are down by a run with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th...bases loaded. Do you want Prince or Victor at the dish?

I choose Victor.
Sorry...I'm with Laley here. Victor had a career year last summer. Secondly, this isn't the first time Victor has seen the IR.

But it really doesn't matter. The Tiger line up is much better than the tribe's...player by player. Pitchingwise..the same. I'd take Fister over Ubaldo any day of the week.
Jan 27, 2012 12:48am
Mulva's avatar

Mulva

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Jan 27, 2012 1:33 AM
Not sure if it's been mentioned, but Dan Wheeler got a minor league invite.
Jan 27, 2012 1:33am
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BR1986FB

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24,104 posts
Jan 27, 2012 7:50 AM
Mulva;1067370 wrote:Not sure if it's been mentioned, but Dan Wheeler got a minor league invite.
If he pans out in Spring Training I could see him being a back end of the bullpen type of guy, moving Pestano to closer and trading Chris Perez for a right handed stick.
Jan 27, 2012 7:50am
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BR1986FB

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24,104 posts
Jan 27, 2012 8:04 AM
So driving in this morning, I'm listening to 92.3 and they brought up a good point. Ok, Dolan...we get it...you don't want to sell the team. What the on air guys did bring up was that if Dolan is so "cash strapped' he could always bring in outside investors to bolster the roster but he won't even do THAT. To me, this says where his mindset is. It's not about winning.
Jan 27, 2012 8:04am
S

stlouiedipalma

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1,797 posts
Jan 27, 2012 1:13 PM
royal_k;1066411 wrote:Yeah, they are considered "small market". Thus, St. Louis not being able to sign AP. They sell out every game. You know they're making money, and had the resources to sign him.

Yeah, they had the money, but DeWitt has been a bit on the "frugal" side when it comes to big contracts. I think what scared them off on the AP deal was the length of the contract. A 40-year old Pujols doesn't seem to be worth over $20 million/year, no matter what his stats are today.
Jan 27, 2012 1:13pm
S

stlouiedipalma

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1,797 posts
Jan 27, 2012 1:23 PM
The question I keep asking myself is whether the whole 90's phenomenon was simply "lightning in a bottle". I mean, look at how that all came together. The Indians found themselves in a perfect storm, with a boatload of cash made available by the five-year "up front" leases on the new suites at the Jake. That enabled them to sign long-term deals with an admittedly talented nucleus of young players. As these players matured into bonafide All-Stars, they were able to supplement them with the occasional aging veteran, but never adding the stud free agent to take them all the way. As those players grew older they either left or their skills diminished to the point where the on-field product simply wasn't among the elite in the AL Central. As a result, attendance dwindled and we have had to endure many losing seasons. Once again, we find ourselves with a talented nucleus of young players. The question is whether the front office is willing to spend what is necessary to supplement these players with several stud free agents. I can understand if players choose not to come to Cleveland, but Dolan needs to make them choose not to for reasons other than money-related. Offer the big bucks and the results will follow, Progressive Field will sell out once again and Dolan's investment will have paid off.

But you have to offer the big bucks. At least show the fans you're trying.
Jan 27, 2012 1:23pm
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TBone14

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6,383 posts
Jan 27, 2012 1:35 PM
Just because he's employed by ESPN doesn't make his opinion right or wrong but Buster Olney agrees with me.

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney



It'll be fun watching Cabrera/Fielder show. But not sure if they'll be any better than '11, given 1) loss of VMart; 2) Defensive trade-off.



FWIW

With that said, I have never wanted a team to fail so badly in my life. The Tiger fans in NW Ohio are out of control right now. Norm Wamer is already planning his show around the playoffs. A couple of my buddies who are Tigers fans; we always catch at least 1 game in Cleveland and Detroit. They told me they are out this year. Saving the money for playoff tickets.

You want to crown em? Then crown their asses. I am remaining optimistic. I like our staff and really think Sipp, Pestano and Perez build on last year. Make every game 7 innings. As long as Adrubal doesn't regress, we should get more out of Brantley, Kipnis, Chizz and especially Choo.

White Sox and Twins are down. Royals are getting stronger but might be a few years out still. Plus they are the Royals. The Tribe should be better than last year...just on the basis that the young guys should continue to develop. Choo and Sizemore couldn't of had worse years. The only guy who had a career year and could regress is Asdrubal.
Jan 27, 2012 1:35pm
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

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4,423 posts
Jan 27, 2012 2:51 PM
Can't stand to listen to Norm Wamer. I turn the station immediately when his show comes on.

Let em all talk all they want....I'm not conceding anything either.
Jan 27, 2012 2:51pm
TBone14's avatar

TBone14

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6,383 posts
Jan 27, 2012 3:34 PM
royal_k;1067842 wrote:Can't stand to listen to Norm Wamer. I turn the station immediately when his show comes on.

Let em all talk all they want....I'm not conceding anything either.
I love how he just keeps making his show longer. I swear he just used to be on an hour. Then he gave himself another hour right after Dan Patrick. Then after Patrick left he said screw it..I need 3 hours. It is the most miserable radio out there. I'm just glad that he rarely brings up that he went to Lake. We have been through enough as it is..lest I have to remember that he walked the same hallways as I did.
Jan 27, 2012 3:34pm
Mulva's avatar

Mulva

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13,650 posts
Jan 27, 2012 3:37 PM
TBone14;1067753 wrote: White Sox and Twins are down. Royals are getting stronger but might be a few years out still. Plus they are the Royals. The Tribe should be better than last year...just on the basis that the young guys should continue to develop. Choo and Sizemore couldn't of had worse years. The only guy who had a career year and could regress is Asdrubal.
The Royals still have no pitching. The Giants #4/5 starter is arguably their new ace. Could have a scary lineup though if young guys like Moustakas, Hosmer, and Perez continue to develop.

I think the Indians appear to be a pretty clear #2 heading into the season.
Jan 27, 2012 3:37pm
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Laley23

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29,506 posts
Jan 27, 2012 4:05 PM
Norm Wamer is such a tool. Got some great stories, most of which cant be talked about. But Jesus, he thinks he is Gods gift to Toledo. He is a joke. Im sure I could host a better show. He doesnt even know professional sports at all, and barely knows the local schools better than myself.
Jan 27, 2012 4:05pm