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Tiger2003's avatar

Tiger2003

Kill or be Killed

15,421 posts
Sep 29, 2011 10:41 AM
Who does everyone think will win them?

AL Cy Young- Verlander
AL MVP- Verlander
AL ROY- Nova
AL MOY- Madden

NL Cy Young- Kershaw
NL MVP- Kemp
NL ROY- Freeman
NL MOY- Gibson
Sep 29, 2011 10:41am
Laley23's avatar

Laley23

GOAT

29,506 posts
Sep 29, 2011 11:49 AM
AL CYA - Verlander
AL MVP - Miguel Cabrera (I have been harping Grandyman since June also)
AL ROY - Jeremy Hellickson
AL MOY - Madden

NL CYA - Kershaw
NL MVP - Kemp
NL ROY - Freeman (but Kimbrel is gonna win)
NL MOY - Gibson
Sep 29, 2011 11:49am
T

thavoice

Senior Member

14,376 posts
Sep 29, 2011 11:53 AM
I just dont think a guy who plays only 30-35 games should get the MVP.
Sep 29, 2011 11:53am
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Sep 29, 2011 11:59 AM
thavoice;915823 wrote:I just dont think a guy who plays only 30-35 games should get the MVP.
Without him, they're a middle of the division team. If you go by what the award is called, no one is more valuable.
Sep 29, 2011 11:59am
Laley23's avatar

Laley23

GOAT

29,506 posts
Sep 29, 2011 1:17 PM
queencitybuckeye;915830 wrote:Without him, they're a middle of the division team. If you go by what the award is called, no one is more valuable.
Bullshit. How many games did they win in September, when Cabrera took the fuck off? How many did Verlander win?

They won like 12 in a row at one point, he pitched in TWO of those games. He is undoubtedly the best pitcher in the AL this year...but he is not the MVP. I mean, with that argument, Kershaw should be the MVP. They only win like 40 games without him.
Sep 29, 2011 1:17pm
Mulva's avatar

Mulva

Senior Member

13,650 posts
Sep 29, 2011 1:48 PM
Kershaw and Verlander are easily the Cy Young winners (both led the league in wins, ERA, and strikeouts).

Gibson should be the NL MOY, with Roenicke getting some deserved votes as well. I'll go with Madden over Leyland in the AL because of the late-season comeback and payroll differential.

Kemp is the obvious NL MVP, and I'll take Miggy in the AL because his OPS is just so much higher than Granderson's.

The AL has 3 really good ROY candidates in Nova, Hellickson, and Hosmer. I'll take Hosmer just because nobody has yet. Kimbrel in the NL.
Sep 29, 2011 1:48pm
Mulva's avatar

Mulva

Senior Member

13,650 posts
Sep 29, 2011 1:48 PM
For some reason it double posted and I didn't notice until now. Boy does it sour my mood when that happens.
Sep 29, 2011 1:48pm
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

Senior Member

4,423 posts
Sep 29, 2011 4:18 PM
I would agree with Hosmer, but I also believe Verlander is the AL MVP.

He is the most valuable player to his team in the AL.
Sep 29, 2011 4:18pm
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Crimson streak

Senior Member

9,002 posts
Sep 29, 2011 5:23 PM
royal_k;916115 wrote:I would agree with Hosmer, but I also believe Verlander is the AL MVP.

He is the most valuable player to his team in the AL.

24 wins out of there 96 isn't the most valuable.
Sep 29, 2011 5:23pm
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Leonardo

Senior Member

4,986 posts
Sep 29, 2011 7:12 PM
AL Cy Young - Justin Verlander, Detroit Tigers, 24-5, 2.40 ERA, 250 K, 4 complete games, 2 shutouts, no-hitter
NL Cy Young - Clayton Kershaw, Los Angeles Dodgers, 21-5, 2.28 ERA, 248 K, 5 complete games, 2 shutouts

AL MVP - Jose Bautista, Toronto Blue Jays, .302 average, 43 HR, 103 RBI, 105 runs, .608 slugging, 1.056 OPS
NL MVP - Matt Kemp, Los Angeles Dodgers, .324 average, 39 HR, 126 RBI, 115 runs, 40 SB, .586 slugging, .986 OPS

AL Manager - Joe Maddon, Tampa Bay Rays, 91-71, overcame nine-game deficit in Wild Card standings in September
NL Manager - Kirk Gibson, Arizona Diamondbacks, 94-68, NL West division champions, 29 game turn-around from 2010
Sep 29, 2011 7:12pm
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

Senior Member

4,423 posts
Oct 1, 2011 10:01 AM
Crimson streak;916196 wrote:24 wins out of there 96 isn't the most valuable.
If you took him off the team or took Miggy off the team, which team would be better?
Oct 1, 2011 10:01am
Laley23's avatar

Laley23

GOAT

29,506 posts
Oct 1, 2011 10:38 AM
royal_k;918053 wrote:If you took him off the team or took Miggy off the team, which team would be better?
My point is, the guy had 24 wins. Fister came over and had like 8. Scherzer and his horrible ERA had 15. Hell even Rick Porcello (14) and Brad "I suck at Pitching" Penny had double digit wins with 11. They were a VERY good team, who were NOT carried by 1 guy. Because that is the case, I cant justify a pitcher winning it over Cabrera and the year he put together. He was at like .310 80 RBI and 22 HR. Then the last month when they didnt lose he took off and he ended up at .343, 107 RBI and 30 HR or something.
Oct 1, 2011 10:38am
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

Senior Member

4,423 posts
Oct 1, 2011 10:53 AM
Laley23;918074 wrote:My point is, the guy had 24 wins. Fister came over and had like 8. Scherzer and his horrible ERA had 15. Hell even Rick Porcello (14) and Brad "I suck at Pitching" Penny had double digit wins with 11. They were a VERY good team, who were NOT carried by 1 guy. Because that is the case, I cant justify a pitcher winning it over Cabrera and the year he put together. He was at like .310 80 RBI and 22 HR. Then the last month when they didnt lose he took off and he ended up at .343, 107 RBI and 30 HR or something.
And this further backs up my point. Their line up scored a lot of runs. Thus, all the wins by pitchers with very high ERAs. Outside of Verlander and Fister, their staff is very mediocre. Verlander led the league in wins, era, so, whip, innings, and winning %. There really isn't another pitcher close to him in the AL. The same can't be said for Miggy, as far as position players go.
Oct 1, 2011 10:53am
T

thavoice

Senior Member

14,376 posts
Oct 1, 2011 11:00 AM
The issue really is should pitchers be included in the MVP award. They have their award, the Cy Young, that only pitchers can win.

The Cy Young goes to the best, most valuable pitcher in the league.

It can be seen as splitting hairs that is for sure. I would say unless there really isnt a position player who stood out then maybe an argument can be made.


I still think that pitchers should be left out of the MVP discussion. The MVP on my team is a guy who plays damned near every day, puts up big numbers and is a constant threat on that field every single day.
Oct 1, 2011 11:00am
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

Senior Member

4,423 posts
Oct 1, 2011 11:04 AM
thavoice;918087 wrote:The issue really is should pitchers be included in the MVP award. They have their award, the Cy Young, that only pitchers can win.

The Cy Young goes to the best, most valuable pitcher in the league.

It can be seen as splitting hairs that is for sure. I would say unless there really isnt a position player who stood out then maybe an argument can be made.


I still think that pitchers should be left out of the MVP discussion. The MVP on my team is a guy who plays damned near every day, puts up big numbers and is a constant threat on that field every single day.
I agree with everything you say. But, that's not the way it is. IMO Verlander was the most valuable and best player in the AL this year, if not all of baseball.
Oct 1, 2011 11:04am
T

thavoice

Senior Member

14,376 posts
Oct 1, 2011 11:14 AM
Verlander was the best pitcher in baseball.

That really should be no doubt in anyone's mind.

As far as the best player? Maybe for the 34 days or however many starts he gets he was the best player but I think an MVP is someone who is feared every day there is a game played.

A great position player, a stud in the middle of a lineup, is what a team is built around each day. A stud pitcher you can build a staff around, but Verlander or a top pitcher doesnt on a daily basis make the other players around him play better. A great hitter puts up his numbers, serves as protection to whomever is hitting before him, and also sets up the guy behind him to be able to drive him in.

It really is a difference in philosophy that is all this is. both sides think they are right, both sides have valid and poignant points to the argument, and really neither side is wrong.

Just is a good topic for a healthy debate.
Oct 1, 2011 11:14am
Laley23's avatar

Laley23

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29,506 posts
Oct 1, 2011 11:46 AM
royal_k;918081 wrote:And this further backs up my point. Their line up scored a lot of runs. Thus, all the wins by pitchers with very high ERAs. Outside of Verlander and Fister, their staff is very mediocre. Verlander led the league in wins, era, so, whip, innings, and winning %. There really isn't another pitcher close to him in the AL. The same can't be said for Miggy, as far as position players go.
Just playing devils advocate (though I dont think Verlander is MVP, I do agree with your thought process). But take Verlanders amazingness out and you are left with a 3.5 ERA pitcher. This means the line-up (Cabrera) has to produce the way they did. Take out Cabrera and you are left with 1 less run a game, which means Verlanders has to do what he did.

I just dont think you can have one without the other. I think we are getting hung up on 24 wins, which is incredible. But it was 25.2% of the teams wins. Kershaw had just as good of numbers if not better across the board as Verlander on a shitty team and put up 21 wins, or 25.6% of his teams wins. NO ONE is talking about Kershaw for MVP, yet it looks like Kemp, his teammate, might be the frontrunner....Makes no sense when the same thing is going on in Detroit.
Oct 1, 2011 11:46am
royal_k's avatar

royal_k

Senior Member

4,423 posts
Oct 1, 2011 12:04 PM
Good points Layley. The same CAN be said for Kershaw. FWIW, I believe both Cabrera and Kemp win MVPs.
Oct 1, 2011 12:04pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Oct 1, 2011 12:17 PM
No chance Verlander deserves the MVP award.
Oct 1, 2011 12:17pm
Rotinaj's avatar

Rotinaj

Senior Member

7,699 posts
Oct 1, 2011 12:23 PM
A pitcher shouldnt win the MVP unless he has a ridiculous amount of wins and an ERA under 2.5.
Oct 1, 2011 12:23pm
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Ironman92

Administrator

49,363 posts
Oct 1, 2011 12:27 PM
1. Granderson
2. Cabrera
3. Bautista
4. Ellsbury
5. Gonzalez
6. Cano
7. Verlander
8. Young
9. Teixeira
10. Martinez
Oct 1, 2011 12:27pm
Ironman92's avatar

Ironman92

Administrator

49,363 posts
Oct 1, 2011 12:28 PM
Rotinaj;918140 wrote:A pitcher shouldnt win the MVP unless he has a ridiculous amount of wins and an ERA under 2.5.

And 8 other worthy candidates didn't have great years.
Oct 1, 2011 12:28pm
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Ironman92

Administrator

49,363 posts
Oct 1, 2011 12:30 PM
1. Braun
2. Kemp
3. Fielder
4. Upton
5. Howard
Oct 1, 2011 12:30pm
T

thavoice

Senior Member

14,376 posts
Oct 1, 2011 12:37 PM
Verlander had 24 wins. The next guy in their rotation had 15 so there is a difference of 9 wins. The next dude would be the ace if Verlander was not there so we are looking at 9 wins PLUS whatever the difference would have been between whomever started in the 5th spot this season compared to who would have to replace him.

I am thinking that probably the difference between the current 5 spot and new 5 spot would be a few wins so maybe if Verlander wasnt there maybe we are looking at 11-12 wins and not 24 wins.

That is just another way to look at it if all other things are equal of course with how valuable a pitcher is for wins to the team.

example

1st in rotation= 20 wins
2nd= 13
3rd= 11
4th= 10
5th=8

take out the first guy and bump everyone up. There is an initial difference of 7 wins. the 5th slot garnered 8 wins so what would the possible replacement get in wins? 5? 7+3 is 10 wins difference.


Now...I dont know the tigers rotation. You cannot look just wins but the pitching slot in the rotation. 1-4 usually get the regular starts and the 5th one sometimes gets skipped over. There are injuries so that is why you have to look at the slot in the rotation and not really the total win totals.

Anyone understanding what I am saying or is this idea completely fubar?
Oct 1, 2011 12:37pm
Mulva's avatar

Mulva

Senior Member

13,650 posts
Oct 1, 2011 2:14 PM
Rotinaj;918140 wrote:A pitcher shouldnt win the MVP unless he has a ridiculous amount of wins and an ERA under 2.5.
I don't think he's the MVP, but wouldn't Verlander meet that set of criteria?
Oct 1, 2011 2:14pm