sportchampps;853352 wrote:My friend has been over there 3 times now. He said if we pull out now the last 10 years won't matter but progress is being made.

That doesn't make any sense. If progress is being made (which IMO it isn't significant progress), why would the last 10 years not matter?

Tiger2003;853390 wrote:How so? It is not anymore awful than a Private or anyone else being KIA.

Agreed.

ccrunner609;853397 wrote:we should just leave them be and let them be a 3rd world country

Agreed.

Glory Days;853560 wrote:

we did that once. now there is this place called ground zero in new york.

The thing is, we never let them be a 3rd world country. We have been involved with middle east politics and had a military presence there for decades. Not too mention we support their biggest enemy, Israel.

bases_loaded;853626 wrote:You want to know the last time headlines were made of soldiers dying regularly? When George W. Bush was president. The media uses our young men n women as pawns.

As do our politicians. Sickening.

lhslep134;853898 wrote:Saddam is dead. Enough said?

So what? That hasn't changed anything.

lhslep134;853901 wrote:Because he committed genocide against his own people?! Who says everything has to be about us? I'm not saying we need to solve the world's problems but Saddam was a threat whether you want to believe it or not.

How was Saddam a threat? He had a country that had a military in shambles, no WMD's even though he pretended he had them to seem more powerful than he was and he never threatened us after Desert Storm. So how exactly was he a threat?

lhslep134;853904 wrote:I'm not wasting my time arguing with someone so stubborn. Last post on the subject.

Did they teach you this debate tactic in law school? When someone disagrees with your opinion, just refuse to debate any longer. Sounds like you have no argument and are too stubborn to concede you are wrong.

dwccrew;853916 wrote:
Did they teach you this debate tactic in law school? When someone disagrees with your opinion, just refuse to debate any longer. Sounds like you have no argument and are too stubborn to concede you are wrong.

No, I'm not getting into a debate about money being spent on overseas military presence when there's so much more wasteful spending by our government. I have an argument, I'm choosing not to get into one. Hope that clears things up, and you can stop doing your pathetic little victory dance.

lhslep134;853970 wrote:No, I'm not getting into a debate about money being spent on overseas military presence when there's so much more wasteful spending by our government. I have an argument, I'm choosing not to get into one. Hope that clears things up, and you can stop doing your pathetic little victory dance.

I see that it really wasn't your last post on this thread. Victory dance? LOL.

While I agree that there is so much more wasteful spending by our government than what is spent overseas (which is still a significant amount of wasteful spending itself), I am of the opinion that it is much more wasteful and wrong to send US soldiers into a harmful situation with no true objective or exit strategy; no defined enemy ("terror" is not a defined enemy). It surprises me that more US citizens are not outraged that the government sent some of our bravest to Iraq for no other reason than to finish what Bush I began. Iraq was no friend of ours, but they were hardly a threat. I could agree with going into Afghanistan in the beginning (it is now a quagmire), but Iraq was never necessary and the loss of life is much worse than the loss of money.

My friend has been over there 3 times now. He said if we pull out now the last 10 years won't matter but progress is being made.
That doesn't make any sense. If progress is being made (which IMO it isn't significant progress), why would the last 10 years not matter?

That doesn't make any sense. If progress is being made (which IMO it isn't significant progress), why would the last 10 years not matter?

Im just telling you what he said. His explaination was that they have removed the taliban from many areas and basically forced them out of cities. He said the biggest thing they have left now is going into these small tent cities in the mountains and basically eliminating them. (Should we just carpet bomb these sites) He said if they pull out now he thinks they will just come right back into the cities in smaller number but still better armed then civilians. He also said that if we stop fighting them there they will bring the fight to us. These are just his feelings after doing 3 years of service over there. He said you can see the impact being made from his first trip over there to the end of his last trip.

The whole reason we even got into this talk is because I said we need to withdraw the troops because it is costing the country to much money. His arguments sounded good to be especially since he has seen firsthand what is taking place. If you would like to argue with someone who has seen it with his own eyes I'd be glad to get him to join this site.

sportchampps;854340 wrote:Im just telling you what he said. His explaination was that they have removed the taliban from many areas and basically forced them out of cities. He said the biggest thing they have left now is going into these small tent cities in the mountains and basically eliminating them. (Should we just carpet bomb these sites) He said if they pull out now he thinks they will just come right back into the cities in smaller number but still better armed then civilians. He also said that if we stop fighting them there they will bring the fight to us. These are just his feelings after doing 3 years of service over there. He said you can see the impact being made from his first trip over there to the end of his last trip.

The whole reason we even got into this talk is because I said we need to withdraw the troops because it is costing the country to much money. His arguments sounded good to be especially since he has seen firsthand what is taking place. If you would like to argue with someone who has seen it with his own eyes I'd be glad to get him to join this site.

I don't need to debate with him, I served in the middle east and have seen firsthand myself as well. I have discussed, in the past, with many of the soldiers I served with. Some have been brainwashed, as it seems your friend has as well, that the Taliban will "bring the fight to us". That's bullshit. First off, the Taliban is not Al Qaeda (the group responsible for 9-11). They don't have the means to bring a fight to us. AQ has been pretty dismantled and left without clear leadership.

I believe, as many Americans do, that it is time to bring troops home. I think we have made as much progress as we are going to make and there is no need to spend more money over there and more importantly, no need to waste any more US troops lives.

I believe we have accomplished things both in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not really wanting to go into details but I really don't believe any of the last 10 years have been a waste. I know most of you won't agree but that is how I feel. For some of you calling this last 10 years a waste I would love for to step back and listen to what your saying. So for all the KIA or WIA there purpose in life was a waste and I feel you can't say that. I'm not looking to get into a pissing match but I want you guys or gals to really think about what your saying. To the people on here who have served I have no clue how you can say this war is a waste.

Like I said if we didn't respond to the 9-11 attack then you could call these last 10 years a waste because as the strongest military in the world we would have looked like cowards.

Semper Fi

Tiger2003;854764 wrote:I believe we have accomplished things both in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not really wanting to go into details but I really don't believe any of the last 10 years have been a waste. I know most of you won't agree but that is how I feel. For some of you calling this last 10 years a waste I would love for to step back and listen to what your saying. So for all the KIA or WIA there purpose in life was a waste and I feel you can't say that. I'm not looking to get into a pissing match but I want you guys or gals to really think about what your saying. To the people on here who have served I have no clue how you can say this war is a waste.

Like I said if we didn't respond to the 9-11 attack then you could call these last 10 years a waste because as the strongest military in the world we would have looked like cowards.

Semper Fi

Not saying that their purpose in life was a waste. Just that they were lost, following orders that havent lead to much of anything to hang our hat on. And its a shame that they had to die

Tiger2003;854764 wrote:I believe we have accomplished things both in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not really wanting to go into details but I really don't believe any of the last 10 years have been a waste. I know most of you won't agree but that is how I feel. For some of you calling this last 10 years a waste I would love for to step back and listen to what your saying. So for all the KIA or WIA there purpose in life was a waste and I feel you can't say that. I'm not looking to get into a pissing match but I want you guys or gals to really think about what your saying. To the people on here who have served I have no clue how you can say this war is a waste.

Like I said if we didn't respond to the 9-11 attack then you could call these last 10 years a waste because as the strongest military in the world we would have looked like cowards.

Semper Fi

Their lives were wasted. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. They died fighting in a country we had no business being in. Did something have to happen after 9-11? Yes. It was called Afghanistan.

GoChiefs;854770 wrote:Their lives were wasted. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. They died fighting in a country we had no business being in. Did something have to happen after 9-11? Yes. It was called Afghanistan.

So what your saying is if you died in Iraq it was a waste but if you died in Afghanistan it wasn't?

That doesn't make any sense. If progress is being made (which IMO it isn't significant progress), why would the last 10 years not matter?

First off, the Taliban is not Al Qaeda (the group responsible for 9-11). They don't have the means to bring a fight to us. AQ has been pretty dismantled and left without clear leadership.

So is that not significant progress. Your proving his point AQ has no clear leadership right now. If we leave someone will step in rally the angry and they are right back to where they were before.

Tiger2003;854776 wrote:So what your saying is if you died in Iraq it was a waste but if you died in Afghanistan it wasn't?

No...I'm saying going to Iraq was a waste. Afghanistan was justified because of 9-11.

charliehustle14;853353 wrote:I agree 100%. It's been almost 10 years, what progress has there been over there? A couple elections? Real freakin' nice. And I use the term 'election' loosely.

It's a losing cause over there and has been from the start. Superior military or not, it's just something you're probably not going to win. Just ask the Soviets. Right now there's too many of those insurgent and Taliban ass wipes there and too many more waiting to take their place. They know the land, they have support/aid from outside of the country along with many of those living in it.

The whole war on terror concept is kind of a joke to me. No matter how many of them you hunt down and kill, terrorism will still exist. Terrorism has always existed through history and will continue to always exist. Unless all the crazy asswipes and extremists just suddenly disappear through out the world, terrorism isn't going anywhere. We would have been better off spending the crap loads of money on improving security and defense here.

Wars on ideals and vague things (Drugs, Poverty, Terrorism, etc) never or rarely work out and make most of the situations worse throught the collateral damage. There are better ways to attempt to solve those problems then with "wars".

First off, and I know most of the media calls it this, but they are officially DEVGRU, and the SEAL is capitalized. There are no periods between the letters but SEAL is an acronym and should be capitalized, as a seal is a furry animal who lives in the water, and a SEAL is an elite fighting force.


Was killing UBL worth it?

Of course it was.

He was responsible for 9/11, and he was brought to justice.

Was it a set up?

No.

SEALs and other special forces conduct raids pretty much every night. As a matter of fact, the night that Bin Ladin was killed other SEAL elements were capturing and killing other Taliban forces throughout the country as they do all the time.

It was a lucky shot by the taliban. A person with an RPG happened to be nearby. It happens often, and most times they miss. It happened June 25 of 2005 where I think 16 SEALs were shot down as a part of a QRF. There is a book, Lone Survivor by Marcus Luttrell who details that event among other books.


A former member of the teams who went on three tours and many, many combat missions told me they were fired at routinely from RPG's and small arms fire. It happens quite a bit to their forces. it is pretty much a given because chinooks are loud. They are slow, and they are not very agile. WHen they raid places there are other enemies around. They will take one way in, and another way back to help in avoiding it but it happens. DEVGRU took different stealth helo's to the compound to kill UBL.

What has happened is a tragic event. It reminds us that there is still a war going on, and that it always isnt going to go as planned. It is a very sad day and what it will do to the special forces community is make them mad, get them more focused, and they willl hone their craft even more. We would always like to think the enemy can never get the best of us.

Pretty much every night some SEAL element is out in Iraq and Afghanistan on some sort of op killing and capturing the enemy. A vast, vast majority of time the good guys win, and occassionaly the bad guys do.

Am awaiting to hear if I had known any of those who were killed. At the time I spoke to my source he hadnt gotten any names yet.


I havent been 'Over There' yet, but I did put my name in and VOLUNTEERED to get attached to two different units that are going over there this fall. I have not heard yet but I hope to get picked up by one of them.

charliehustle14;853372 wrote:I'm hearing through AP sources on Twitter that none of the members of Team 6 involved in the killing of OBL were involved in the chopper crash that killed 20 members of Team 6. Regardless, still utterly sad and at this point, rather senseless.

Can anyone else confirm this?

sportchampps;854778 wrote:So is that not significant progress. Your proving his point AQ has no clear leadership right now. If we leave someone will step in rally the angry and they are right back to where they were before.

Not in Afghanistan it isn't. As you said, someone else will take over. Just because they have no clear cut leadership right now doesn't mean they won't get leadership. The US can't be over there forever; once we leave it will revert back to what it once was. Taliban will take back over in Afghanistan and AQ will regroup. Our best way to defend ourselves is to not be involved over there and bring our troops home to fortify and defend within our borders.

Had the protocol in place been followed prior to 9-11, 9-11 wouldn't have happened.

Eternal Father, faithful friend
watch over those we send
in brotherhood and urgent trust
on hidden missions dangerous
O hear us when we cry to Thee
For SEALs in air on land and sea.

Eternal Father, faithful friend
watch over those we send
in brotherhood and urgent trust
on hidden missions dangerous
O hear us when we cry to Thee
For SEALs in air on land and sea.

From the Halls of Montezuma,
To the shores of Tripoli;
We fight our country's battles
In the air, on land, and sea;
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean:
We are proud to claim the title
Of United States Marine.

Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in every clime and place
Where we could take a gun;
In the snow of far-off Northern lands
And in sunny tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job
The United States Marines.

Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve;
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven’s scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.