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LSAT Prep Course

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raiderbuck

Senior Member

1,623 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:15 AM
Anyone ever take it? Or any Kaplan/Standardized test prep courses for that matter...the last one I took was for the ACT back in high school, and I goofed through it.

However, I'm considering applying to law school and I need to conquer the LSAT beast. My friend tells me that the test is all based on logic, analysis and problem solving. I love problem solving, I do it at work everyday.
Apr 25, 2011 10:15am
OneBuckeye's avatar

OneBuckeye

Senior Member

5,888 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:18 AM
raiderbuck;749293 wrote:Anyone ever take it? Or any Kaplan/Standardized test prep courses for that matter...the last one I took was for the ACT back in high school, and I goofed through it.

However, I'm considering applying to law school and I need to conquer the LSAT beast. My friend tells me that the test is all based on logic, analysis and problem solving. I love problem solving, I do it at work everyday.
Do yourself a favor and don't go to law school.
Apr 25, 2011 10:18am
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:31 AM
OneBuckeye;749295 wrote:Do yourself a favor and don't go to law school.

this...this times a million. Unless you're sure you're going to get a scholly or go to a top tier school and graduate at the top of the class (close to the top) you'd be better served not going. There are literally no jobs to be had...like 90-95% of law students graduating won't be working (made up stat but I feel like it's close...OSU's 2nd years only got 17 summer internships this year IIRC out of like 150 or something kids?) in what "law". My buddy graduated 2 years ago, passed the bar, and just now got his first job and it's still only contract work.

The amount of debt, plus time lost not working, it's almost criminal that schools are accepting kids knowing full well the majority won't have a shot at a job right now.
Apr 25, 2011 10:31am
mucalum49's avatar

mucalum49

Senior Member

1,639 posts
Apr 25, 2011 2:05 PM
If those last two comments haven't detered you, I used the #2 book on this list from Amazon. Went from scoring around 150 at the start to 160-165 on practice tests and I got a 163 on the actual LSAT. Didn't end up going to law school though.

http://www.amazon.com/LSAT-Prep/lm/R1X1HV5FLZMHW2
Apr 25, 2011 2:05pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Apr 25, 2011 2:33 PM
Don't listen to the clowns above. If you want to go to law school, then do it.
Apr 25, 2011 2:33pm
Scarlet_Buckeye's avatar

Scarlet_Buckeye

Senior Member

5,264 posts
Apr 25, 2011 3:51 PM
Do not enroll at law school. HORRIBLE decision to make right now. I beg you, if you know anyone in the field of law (i.e., in the know) they will tell you this. Start talking to people "in the field". There are ZERO jobs in law to be had. Derek Bomar's comments above are right on que.
Apr 25, 2011 3:51pm
Fly4Fun's avatar

Fly4Fun

Senior Member

7,730 posts
Apr 25, 2011 4:00 PM
Scarlet_Buckeye;749779 wrote:Do not enroll at law school. HORRIBLE decision to make right now. I beg you, if you know anyone in the field of law (i.e., in the know) they will tell you this. Start talking to people "in the field". There are ZERO jobs in law to be had.

That's assuming you don't work hard and end up in the top 10%.

There will always be jobs for people who work hard.
Apr 25, 2011 4:00pm
Scarlet_Buckeye's avatar

Scarlet_Buckeye

Senior Member

5,264 posts
Apr 25, 2011 4:05 PM
Fly4fun. I'm "in the know" on this one for a number of reasons both professionally and personally. Just for starters, I can put you in touch with 3 individuals who have graduated 2nd in their respective law classes - no jobs and that's not even breaking the ice on the subject. I don't know what reality you are living in but the skies are not going to magically part and a beam of light descend down upon you merely because you "worked hard" in law school these days.
Apr 25, 2011 4:05pm
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:13 PM
Scarlet_Buckeye;749799 wrote:Fly4fun. I'm "in the know" on this one for a number of reasons both professionally and personally. Just for starters, I can put you in touch with 3 individuals who have graduated 2nd in their respective law classes - no jobs and that's not even breaking the ice on the subject. I don't know what reality you are living in but the skies are not going to magically part and a beam of light descend down upon you merely because you "worked hard" in law school these days.

Im getting my MBA right now, and I am taking a business law class...first night I asked the prof to comment on the lack of jobs right now and if she had heard of any potential class actions against law schools for admitting people when they know there won't be work...she confirmed how bad it was. And almost none of the people in my class that night had a clue that it was as bad as it is for law students right now. I literally can't think of any reason why anyone would go to law school right now.

Please, please do some research on this if you are really considering it. And if you can't get into a great school don't even bother...seriously.
Apr 25, 2011 10:13pm
like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:14 PM
derek bomar;750217 wrote:Im getting my MBA right now, and I am taking a business law class...first night I asked the prof to comment on the lack of jobs right now and if she had heard of any potential class actions against law schools for admitting people when they know there won't be work...she confirmed how bad it was. And almost none of the people in my class that night had a clue that it was as bad as it is for law students right now. I literally can't think of any reason why anyone would go to law school right now.

Please, please do some research on this if you are really considering it. And if you can't get into a great school don't even bother...seriously.

Where are you getting your MBA?
Apr 25, 2011 10:14pm
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:15 PM
like_that;750220 wrote:Where are you getting your MBA?

OSU
Apr 25, 2011 10:15pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:19 PM
Scarlet_Buckeye;749799 wrote:Fly4fun. I'm "in the know" on this one for a number of reasons both professionally and personally. Just for starters, I can put you in touch with 3 individuals who have graduated 2nd in their respective law classes - no jobs and that's not even breaking the ice on the subject. I don't know what reality you are living in but the skies are not going to magically part and a beam of light descend down upon you merely because you "worked hard" in law school these days.

We have a friend that is graduating from University of Richmond Law (ok, school...not great), the number of graduates with "real" legal jobs is in single digits. I don't have any hard numbers, but from what I understand the class at UVA (just down I-64, a bit higher ranked) has about 50% "real" employment. I can tell you that at my old firm the classes from '08-forward aren't getting work. One of my closest friends (and former minion) is an '08 grad from William and Mary and he's had to switch departments twice just to make his hours so he doesn't get canned. He's never received a bonus because he hasn't sniffed 2,000 hours and his salary, like mine, was cut by 15%. I can't imagine it being much better in Ohio. Hell, I had to move 10,000 miles away to get real work again, and I actually have good work experience. These young people don't have a chance, law school teaches you nothing about practicing, and just puts a lot of people in debt. It is a good strategy when the economy is good, it is horrible strategy when it is bad, and regardless of what the media tells you, the economy is still pretty bad. I lived through the '01-'03 recession, and it isn't even close to the lack of work today.

That said, if you want to ace the LSAT the best bet is to buy old tests and teach yourself. But even if you get in the 95+ percentile I wouldn't go in much debt for law school, even for Harvard, Stanford, Yale. The best decision I ever made in my life (other than marrying my wife) was not to take out $150,000+ in loans for a top ranked school but rather take out only $40,000+ in loans for a slightly lower ranked schoo.
Apr 25, 2011 10:19pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:25 PM
derek bomar;750217 wrote:Im getting my MBA right now, and I am taking a business law class...first night I asked the prof to comment on the lack of jobs right now and if she had heard of any potential class actions against law schools for admitting people when they know there won't be work...she confirmed how bad it was. And almost none of the people in my class that night had a clue that it was as bad as it is for law students right now. I literally can't think of any reason why anyone would go to law school right now.

Please, please do some research on this if you are really considering it. And if you can't get into a great school don't even bother...seriously.
Although I admire(and envy) your decision to get an MBA at one of the greatest schools ever created, there's no way its the law schools job to stop admitting people because there are no jobs. They are there to educate and give you skills to use for a job, but they aren't obligated to analyze the job market and be like "Sorry, but there will be no jobs in law by the time you graduate, why not get your masters?"
Apr 25, 2011 10:25pm
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Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 25, 2011 10:49 PM
"Although I admire(and envy) your decision to get an MBA at one of the greatest schools ever created, there's no way its the law schools job to stop admitting people because there are no jobs."

Agreed, but that doesn't mean they should misrepresent the employment stats, which nearly all schools do. Working for a BS job in the summer for a professor does not consitute real legal employment. I doubt any legal challenge is much of a threat, but I can tell you at my alma mater donations have gone down considerably in the last few years and many alums are questioning why tuition has tripled in barely 15 years when the economy has not kept up with that type of inflation.
Apr 25, 2011 10:49pm
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
Apr 26, 2011 7:17 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;750273 wrote:"Although I admire(and envy) your decision to get an MBA at one of the greatest schools ever created, there's no way its the law schools job to stop admitting people because there are no jobs."

Agreed, but that doesn't mean they should misrepresent the employment stats, which nearly all schools do. Working for a BS job in the summer for a professor does not consitute real legal employment. I doubt any legal challenge is much of a threat, but I can tell you at my alma mater donations have gone down considerably in the last few years and many alums are questioning why tuition has tripled in barely 15 years when the economy has not kept up with that type of inflation.

I've heard a that a lot of schools are misrepresenting the employment statistics, such as counting TA work as jobs in the "legal profession" or whatever...that's why I thought maybe someone had a shot at a suit, but who knows
Apr 26, 2011 7:17am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 26, 2011 7:27 AM
derek bomar;750390 wrote:I've heard a that a lot of schools are misrepresenting the employment statistics, such as counting TA work as jobs in the "legal profession" or whatever...that's why I thought maybe someone had a shot at a suit, but who knows

The biggest shot is attacking the funding. As long as Uncle Sam is acting as a guarantor of student loans the madness will continue. The cost of education is the next bubble...we've seen it in the late 90's with the internet, and in the mid '00's with RE, and we're seeing it now. It is beyond obvious. When you subsidize behavior you risk this situation. Our young people are burdened with more debt (that isn't dischargeable in bankruptcy) that they can handle. Instead of being born with silver spoons in their mouths, they are born with debtors' handcuffs.
Apr 26, 2011 7:27am
Scarlet_Buckeye's avatar

Scarlet_Buckeye

Senior Member

5,264 posts
Apr 26, 2011 8:38 AM
I can tell you for a fact that I know multiple law schools that skew their numbers for promotional purposes for their law school graduates whereby even if you graduate from their law school and get a job delivering pizza's they count that in their statistics of "employed law school graduates" graduating from their institution.

In my previous posts I am not saying that in the past getting a law degree was not something prestigous and lucrative. I am saying that NOW, under the present conditions, it is NOT. Again, DO A LOT OF RESEARCH INTO THIS FROM PEOPLE IN THE KNOW before you invest a lot of time and money into getting a law degree at the present time. It's just not a good decision right now and that's reality.
Apr 26, 2011 8:38am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 26, 2011 8:55 AM
"In my previous posts I am not saying that in the past getting a law degree was not something prestigous and lucrative. I am saying that NOW, under the present conditions, it is NOT."

Agreed, not accusing of you saying otherwise. Would be interested in hearing FFT's POV from a relatively recent grad's perspective. My anecdotal contribution is pretty limited, but the factual contribution is that tuition (and loans) continue to rise - for what reason?
Apr 26, 2011 8:55am
lhslep134's avatar

lhslep134

why so serious?

9,774 posts
Apr 26, 2011 9:05 AM
I'll be headed to law school next year on a pretty solid scholly at University of Arizona and I'm hoping the employment opportunities out there are better than in Ohio.

One of the reasons I chose there is they guarantee you (at the very worst a judicial clerkship) some sort of job after the 1L year, and I'm hoping to use that as a springboard for the future.


This thread has not made me feel good lol.

Back to the topic at hand, I would use a lot of old tests and maybe a prep book if there's a certain type of question that keeps getting you. The logic games aren't bad, and neither is the reading comprehension. They'll get you with the logical reasoning questions because they're so tricky with the wording with some of them.
Apr 26, 2011 9:05am
OneBuckeye's avatar

OneBuckeye

Senior Member

5,888 posts
Apr 26, 2011 9:05 AM
My wife recently graduated from CWRU in 2010. The number of employed students in NE Ohio can be counted on one hand. (Not counting people on doc reviews etc.) Only one of her close friends is gainfully employed and they are in Arizona. She has been lucky enough to be in finalist for a job recently and we are waiting to here back. She is competing with someone from her class who graduated in the top 10%.
Apr 26, 2011 9:05am
OneBuckeye's avatar

OneBuckeye

Senior Member

5,888 posts
Apr 26, 2011 9:08 AM
lhslep134;750432 wrote:I'll be headed to law school next year on a pretty solid scholly at University of Arizona and I'm hoping the employment opportunities out there are better than in Ohio.

One of the reasons I chose there is they guarantee you (at the very worst a judicial clerkship) some sort of job after the 1L year, and I'm hoping to use that as a springboard for the future.


This thread has not made me feel good lol.

Back to the topic at hand, I would use a lot of old tests and maybe a prep book if there's a certain type of question that keeps getting you. The logic games aren't bad, and neither is the reading comprehension. They'll get you with the logical reasoning questions because they're so tricky with the wording with some of them.

What is your undergrad in? If you have a BS preferably with engineering background employment is much easier. If not you will struggle. My wife's friend graduated top 10 people in her CWRU class and took 5 months to get an offer in Arizona.
Apr 26, 2011 9:08am
lhslep134's avatar

lhslep134

why so serious?

9,774 posts
Apr 26, 2011 9:40 AM
OneBuckeye;750435 wrote:What is your undergrad in? If you have a BS preferably with engineering background employment is much easier. If not you will struggle. My wife's friend graduated top 10 people in her CWRU class and took 5 months to get an offer in Arizona.

Business Operations Management. I'm not looking to become a trial lawyer, I'm trying to do some corporate law. I also have a few family contacts that are agents (not anything special) out in LA that I am using as a fall back option.
Apr 26, 2011 9:40am
OneBuckeye's avatar

OneBuckeye

Senior Member

5,888 posts
Apr 26, 2011 9:44 AM
lhslep134;750443 wrote:Business Operations Management. I'm not looking to become a trial lawyer, I'm trying to do some corporate law. I also have a few family contacts that are agents (not anything special) out in LA that I am using as a fall back option.

You better be top in your class if that is the case.
Apr 26, 2011 9:44am
lhslep134's avatar

lhslep134

why so serious?

9,774 posts
Apr 26, 2011 10:08 AM
OneBuckeye;750449 wrote:You better be top in your class if that is the case.

That's the plan
Apr 26, 2011 10:08am
R

raiderbuck

Senior Member

1,623 posts
Apr 26, 2011 10:11 AM
It's back and forth between law degree and MBA. I've weighed some options, but wanted to get other folks opinions on it (I knew there were some lawyers on the boards). Sounds like it's a lot worse than I thought. My Dad is a retired lawyer, and he talks about finding work for some of his younger mentee's. Says it's rough too.
Apr 26, 2011 10:11am