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M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 26, 2011 10:19 AM
Raiderbuck, I'm a JD (UVA), wife is an MBA (Kellogg), right now she's kicking my ass in income. To be fair, I kicked her rear end in our early years, now she's my sugar mommy!
Apr 26, 2011 10:19am
like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Apr 26, 2011 10:57 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;750472 wrote:Raiderbuck, I'm a JD (UVA), wife is an MBA (Kellogg), right now she's kicking my ass in income. To be fair, I kicked her rear end in our early years, now she's my sugar mommy!

Pretty tough to compete with a Kellogg MBA.
Apr 26, 2011 10:57am
iclfan2's avatar

iclfan2

Reppin' the 330/216/843

6,360 posts
Apr 26, 2011 1:21 PM
derek bomar;750223 wrote:OSU

How is the program there? As in are classes THAT hard in an MBA program or is it really just getting your work done at a higher level? Also, what is the work experience to apply? I had a buddy get in who barely had any real work experience, certainly not of a high level anyway.
Apr 26, 2011 1:21pm
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
Apr 26, 2011 1:51 PM
iclfan2;750633 wrote:How is the program there? As in are classes THAT hard in an MBA program or is it really just getting your work done at a higher level? Also, what is the work experience to apply? I had a buddy get in who barely had any real work experience, certainly not of a high level anyway.

It depends on the class you're taking...for instance, there's a class called entopia or something like that where it's like a qtr long simulation of where you run your own business within the universe of the classroom and you have to deal with other kids and their businesses to function...that class takes up probably all of your weekend and one or two nights a week (outside of normal class time). Other classes, like some of the "core" classes are what I would call easier classes (on the level with some mid-level or above undergrad classes). Your buddy probably got into the night program (which is what I am doing) as it's "easier" to get into than the day program (night = I work during the day...)

I'd recommend it though, as at least with me I've been promoted since enrolling (almost done now) and have made a lot of great friends and contacts. I'd say the networking is as valuable as the course load in some respects.
Apr 26, 2011 1:51pm
OneBuckeye's avatar

OneBuckeye

Senior Member

5,888 posts
Apr 26, 2011 1:54 PM
derek bomar;750658 wrote:It depends on the class you're taking...for instance, there's a class called entopia or something like that where it's like a qtr long simulation of where you run your own business within the universe of the classroom and you have to deal with other kids and their businesses to function...that class takes up probably all of your weekend and one or two nights a week (outside of normal class time). Other classes, like some of the "core" classes are what I would call easier classes (on the level with some mid-level or above undergrad classes). Your buddy probably got into the night program (which is what I am doing) as it's "easier" to get into than the day program (night = I work during the day...)

I'd recommend it though, as at least with me I've been promoted since enrolling (almost done now) and have made a lot of great friends and contacts. I'd say the networking is as valuable as the course load in some respects.
What did you get on your GMAT? Just curious.
Apr 26, 2011 1:54pm
derek bomar's avatar

derek bomar

Senior Member

3,722 posts
Apr 26, 2011 2:14 PM
OneBuckeye;750660 wrote:What did you get on your GMAT? Just curious.

I honestly don't remember - thought I know I only got one question wrong on the English part. I think it was around 700. I didn't think the Math would be tough but I forgot a lot of basic shit since high school apparently.

I also took the test hungover and did not study at all...
Apr 26, 2011 2:14pm
F

fan_from_texas

Senior Member

2,693 posts
Apr 26, 2011 2:15 PM
I just saw this. As a recent (2008) grad who remains involved with recruiting here, I have pretty good insight into the process. A few thoughts (maybe I'll elaborate more later--client stuff popping up and don't have a lot of time right now):

(1) The LSAT itself is not very difficult. The problem is that you have to do extremely well on it. That's because admissions essentially depends on three factors: your undergrad GPA, your LSAT score, and the color of your skin. Virtually nothing else makes any difference for 99% of applicants, though there are a handful of instances where a borderline applicant who majored in something real (e.g. engineering) gets a bump compared to someone who majored in something soft (e.g. religious studies or polisci).

(2) The reason you need to do well on the LSAT is that you need to get into a good school or otherwise get a ton of scholarship money. Law schools continue to bring on new students, but law firms are not hiring. I work in BigLaw (arguably--not in NYC, but a Vault firm in the midwest). My 2L summer, we had ~160 summer associates. This past summer, we had about 20. This reduction is consistent with firms across the country.

(3) Because big firms aren't hiring much, they can be very selective. Our last class in my office was entirely composed of people who were at the top of their class at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Duke, and Northwestern. We also had the top student at the local tier 1 law school. Other than that, we didn't hire anyone.

(4) Most top firms only interview people who are at the top of their class at top schools. This means top 1/3 at top 14 schools, top 1/4 at top 20 schools, and top 5-10% at top 50 schools. If you do not fit the bill, you will not get a job at a big firm.

(5) Law school tuition is upwards of $30-40k/yr at most places, not including cost of living. At my alma mater, Northwestern, my financial aid package each year came up 4o $70k/yr. Most law school grads graduate with six figures of debt.

(6) It's true that you can practice law at non-big firms, but the cost-benefit analysis gets shaky. Starting salaries at top firms are in the $130-160k range, depending on the market. But because there is a bimodal salary distribution, if you don't make $160k, you make $40k. There aren't a lot of starting jobs with salaries in-between. In other words, either you can finish at the top of your class at a top school, make a ton of money, and pay off your loans. Or you can be like 90% of other law school graduates, take out massive debt, waste three years of your life, and end up in a terrible position.

The market may change in the future. It's possible that being in non-biglaw is more satisfying and fulfilling. But as a rough rule of thumb, don't go to law school unless (1) you can go to a top-14 school, or (2) you can go to a solid top 50 school on scholarship. Otherwise, the math doesn't work out.

Now, if you're independently wealthy, or if you really like tracking your life in six-minute increments while reviewing piles of documents, and you just don't care about being poor while working crappy hours, don't let me talk you out of it. But don't say you weren't warned. This may sound harsh, but it's true, and it's better to know than to screw yourself over.

If you have questions, I'll try to check back later and answer some.
Apr 26, 2011 2:15pm
Little Danny's avatar

Little Danny

Senior Member

4,288 posts
Apr 26, 2011 6:13 PM
The market place right now is pretty strange for professional jobs that were once considered to be paved with gold. Every lawyer I know wants their kid to become a doctor; every doctor I know wants their kid to become a lawyer.

Not sure what type of law interests you, but as others have stated good luck to you.
Apr 26, 2011 6:13pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 26, 2011 11:28 PM
"(6) It's true that you can practice law at non-big firms, but the cost-benefit analysis gets shaky. Starting salaries at top firms are in the $130-160k range, depending on the market. But because there is a bimodal salary distribution, if you don't make $160k, you make $40k. There aren't a lot of starting jobs with salaries in-between. In other words, either you can finish at the top of your class at a top school, make a ton of money, and pay off your loans. Or you can be like 90% of other law school graduates, take out massive debt, waste three years of your life, and end up in a terrible position. "

This is 100% correct. I'll also add in this...even if you get the $130-160K job, its not yours for life. At the large firms half of the starting lawyers will leave after 2 or 3 years, and not necessarily for greener pastures. I've been out for 12 years and I can count the number of people that started at their firm and made equity partner in the Vault 50 on one hand. I know plenty of people who are "partner" in name only, but even more that have just left the profession entirely. At our 10 year reunion a couple of years ago probably half of my small section (small section being 30 people) don't practice at all. Some of those are women who left to take care of the kids, but on the other hand some are people that just got fed up with the lack of upwards mobility and long hours.
Apr 26, 2011 11:28pm
Tobias Fünke's avatar

Tobias Fünke

formerly "sjmvsfscs08"

2,387 posts
Apr 27, 2011 1:29 AM
What if you don't want to be a lawyer per se? I'm currently weighing my options between getting my bachelors in City & Regional Planning and going on to get a masters or go to law school. I don't want to be an planner who works for the city mandating how many trees go along a road. Barf. I want to get into government/policy and do some real work. I guess the issue in mind is whether law school would better prepare me for the work of politics/policy making vs. a masters in Planning. It has been a dream to get into Notre Dame's law school, and I'd pay $50k/yr to have that happen in an instant hahah although more than likely I wouldn't pay much out of my own pockets. But a masters at Ohio State/Cornell/Cal/Michigan would be neat in its own way.
Apr 27, 2011 1:29am
C

cbus4life

Ignorant

2,849 posts
Apr 27, 2011 1:52 AM
Tobias Fünke;751280 wrote:What if you don't want to be a lawyer per se? I'm currently weighing my options between getting my bachelors in City & Regional Planning and going on to get a masters or go to law school. I don't want to be an planner who works for the city mandating how many trees go along a road. Barf. I want to get into government/policy and do some real work. I guess the issue in mind is whether law school would better prepare me for the work of politics/policy making vs. a masters in Planning. It has been a dream to get into Notre Dame's law school, and I'd pay $50k/yr to have that happen in an instant hahah although more than likely I wouldn't pay much out of my own pockets. But a masters at Ohio State/Cornell/Cal/Michigan would be neat in its own way.

Go to Michigan. Seriously. Loved the time i spent there. Sure, can't go wrong with OSU, especially in the area you're looking at, but i loved my time in Ann Arbor.
Apr 27, 2011 1:52am
ICEMAN59's avatar

ICEMAN59

Senior Member

160 posts
Apr 27, 2011 4:05 AM
OneBuckeye;749295 wrote:Do yourself a favor and don't go to law school.

Agreed.

Graduated in 2006 . . . my entire core group of friends from law school regret the decision to ever go. I have a decent job, but the long-term upside just isn't there to financially to justify the amount of debt.

Law school is a horrible decision now, for most people. The ABA, or any other body for that matter, does nothing to regulate the number of law students and law schools . . . . so both of those things keep increasing in a market that is drastically decreasing . . . . it's borderline criminal. On top of that, there's really no attrition to speak of, as the older attorneys I'm surrounded by in private practice simply aren't retiring, because they need to stay active and earn.

It's a bad situation right now, it really is . . . I spend some part of every day wishing I'd done something else, as does literally almost every youngish attorney I know. I'm just lucky that I work with great people, that makes things a little more tolerable.
Apr 27, 2011 4:05am
ICEMAN59's avatar

ICEMAN59

Senior Member

160 posts
Apr 27, 2011 4:08 AM
Little Danny;750869 wrote:The market place right now is pretty strange for professional jobs that were once considered to be paved with gold. Every lawyer I know wants their kid to become a doctor; every doctor I know wants their kid to become a lawyer.

That's funny, because I'm a lawyer and my wife is a doctor . . . we have a kid on the way and have vowed to NEVER let him/her become either.
Apr 27, 2011 4:08am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 27, 2011 5:24 AM
Little Danny;750869 wrote:The market place right now is pretty strange for professional jobs that were once considered to be paved with gold. Every lawyer I know wants their kid to become a doctor; every doctor I know wants their kid to become a lawyer.

Not sure what type of law interests you, but as others have stated good luck to you.

From our experience, for Gen X going forward its:

1) Top level MBA over







2) Top level JD over

3) MD

I don't know how medical doctors get by today, the hours in residency are brutal and the pay is absolute crap, and once you get established it doesn't get much better other than the hours.
Apr 27, 2011 5:24am
ICEMAN59's avatar

ICEMAN59

Senior Member

160 posts
Apr 27, 2011 7:19 AM
My wife is a physician . . . she very literally gave up her twenties to be a doctor . . . you can't put a price on that. It just wasn't worth it.
Apr 27, 2011 7:19am
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 27, 2011 7:38 AM
ICEMAN59;751316 wrote:My wife is a physician . . . she very literally gave up her twenties to be a doctor . . . you can't put a price on that. It just wasn't worth it.

Most people don't understand that. I don't have a spouse or sibling that is a doctor, but have some close friends that did the MD thing. Ridiculous what they sacrificed. Buddy of mine is an anesthesiologist, he's just a few years younger and is just now getting out of debt. Great, smart guy, not married because he couldn't get away from the job.
Apr 27, 2011 7:38am
Belly35's avatar

Belly35

Elderly Intellectual

9,716 posts
Apr 27, 2011 7:44 AM
Hope and Change, Hope and Change ... Hope and Change

Some of you have little Hope and not a lot of Change anymore ..................

I find this Thread to be great ...

My advice is to never give up your dreams or your passion be who you want to be but be the best at it. Make people want your talents.
That comes with hard work, long hours and creative thinking ....... Belly35 "When you think you're entitle to more you have done enought"
Apr 27, 2011 7:44am
F

fan_from_texas

Senior Member

2,693 posts
Apr 27, 2011 10:02 AM
Tobias Fünke;751280 wrote:What if you don't want to be a lawyer per se?

If you don't want to be a lawyer, don't go to law school.
It has been a dream to get into Notre Dame's law school, and I'd pay $50k/yr to have that happen in an instant hahah although more than likely I wouldn't pay much out of my own pockets. But a masters at Ohio State/Cornell/Cal/Michigan would be neat in its own way.
I think you're underestimating the crushing nature of six figures of debt. When you have to pay $1,500/mo. every month after taxes for 10 years to earn a salary that may be less than what you would've earned had you stuck it out in a career for the three years--not even accounting for opportunity costs--all while doing something that isn't glamorous and is generally soul-deadening . . . you really start to wonder.
Apr 27, 2011 10:02am
F

fan_from_texas

Senior Member

2,693 posts
Apr 27, 2011 10:05 AM
Manhattan Buckeye;751176 wrote:"(6) It's true that you can practice law at non-big firms, but the cost-benefit analysis gets shaky. Starting salaries at top firms are in the $130-160k range, depending on the market. But because there is a bimodal salary distribution, if you don't make $160k, you make $40k. There aren't a lot of starting jobs with salaries in-between. In other words, either you can finish at the top of your class at a top school, make a ton of money, and pay off your loans. Or you can be like 90% of other law school graduates, take out massive debt, waste three years of your life, and end up in a terrible position. "

This is 100% correct. I'll also add in this...even if you get the $130-160K job, its not yours for life. At the large firms half of the starting lawyers will leave after 2 or 3 years, and not necessarily for greener pastures. I've been out for 12 years and I can count the number of people that started at their firm and made equity partner in the Vault 50 on one hand. I know plenty of people who are "partner" in name only, but even more that have just left the profession entirely. At our 10 year reunion a couple of years ago probably half of my small section (small section being 30 people) don't practice at all. Some of those are women who left to take care of the kids, but on the other hand some are people that just got fed up with the lack of upwards mobility and long hours.

This is what so many people don't understand. The general conception seems to be, "Well, if I don't get a BigLaw job making $160k, I'll just get a slightly less great job making $110k." Those jobs, in general, don't exist: either you make $160k or you make $40-50k, with very little in-between. And when the median turnover at a big firm is right around 3 years . . . it doesn't give you much time to pay down the student loans before the clock has run out and you're screwed. I'm in my third year here, and I'd guess that about 40% of my class has already moved on (some voluntarily, most not so much). What's scary is that these are the people who were in the best-case group coming out! I can't even imagine how terrible it is for most graduates.
Apr 27, 2011 10:05am
Tobias Fünke's avatar

Tobias Fünke

formerly "sjmvsfscs08"

2,387 posts
Apr 27, 2011 12:04 PM
fan_from_texas;751389 wrote: I think you're underestimating the crushing nature of six figures of debt. When you have to pay $1,500/mo. every month after taxes for 10 years to earn a salary that may be less than what you would've earned had you stuck it out in a career for the three years--not even accounting for opportunity costs--all while doing something that isn't glamorous and is generally soul-deadening . . . you really start to wonder.

Extremely valid points. But I haven't accumulated a dime of debt from undergrad, and I don't them I'd come out with six figs of debt. I will agree that is becoming less and less likely law school is on the horizon. Now how to I get ND to start a planning program? :D
Apr 27, 2011 12:04pm
F

fan_from_texas

Senior Member

2,693 posts
Apr 27, 2011 12:26 PM
Tobias Fünke;751511 wrote:Extremely valid points. But I haven't accumulated a dime of debt from undergrad, and I don't them I'd come out with six figs of debt. I will agree that is becoming less and less likely law school is on the horizon. Now how to I get ND to start a planning program? :D

To avoid the debt, either you get massive scholarships or you (or your parents) are wealthy and can/will pay for it.

Law schools don't give need-based grants, as a rule, so unlike undergrad, being really poor doesn't bring down the cost of tuition. Notre Dame bases its finaid calcs on $60k/yr, so we're talking $180k of potential debt, of which only $120k is tuition. This means that a full scholarship will still put you in the hole $60k for living expenses. That's a best-case scenario. To get a full scholarship at ND, you probably need to be looking at a 3.9+ uGPA and a 175ish LSAT, and even then it's dicey (and with those numbers, you're probably better off taking slightly less scholarship money at a top 14).

If you're independently wealthy, all bets are off--do whatever you want.

But if you have to be the one footing the bill, think long and hard before accumulating the debt.
Apr 27, 2011 12:26pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Apr 27, 2011 8:47 PM
"Now how to I get ND to start a planning program?"

Just being curious, why ND? Its not a bad school by any means but it isn't a top school, and to be honest living in South Bend for 3 years as a grad student would suck.
Apr 27, 2011 8:47pm
R

raiderbuck

Senior Member

1,623 posts
Apr 28, 2011 12:04 PM
Sooo...the general consensus is a no on law school? LOL...thanks everyone. But truthfully, I do appreciate everyone's take on the issue. Especially about the debt/job opportunities debate. I would want to go into corporate or business law. Public defending or City prosecuting has never really interested me.

My good friend's sister just finished up her classes at Harvard Law (like, literally today...). Be interesting to see her take on the job market.
Apr 28, 2011 12:04pm
F

fan_from_texas

Senior Member

2,693 posts
Jun 21, 2011 11:41 AM
Pulling this up from the grave--saw an article today that was of some relevance:

Jun 21, 2011 11:41am
OneBuckeye's avatar

OneBuckeye

Senior Member

5,888 posts
Jun 21, 2011 11:48 AM
lol Great article. Update from this thread as well. My wife got the job I had mentioned in the thread. So that is very good news. A lot of her friends are not so lucky.
Jun 21, 2011 11:48am