That reads "the cops can do whatever they want".

I'm not saying that they should have just stood by. But watch the video, it didn't look like either was resisting and the dude just came in swinging. Come in and say "hands behind your back" or "get on the ground". If they don't do that then sure.

Cops are trained to use their strengths before their weapons. Did you notice the cop even try to force the guy to the ground? No, you see him come into the picture club swinging. That's not how they train you.

Hell, I would have been fine with them having the club out ready to use, but nothing there showed me that actually using it was warranted.

Audio?

Can you hear anything like that?

So, you tell a cop to fuck off, and he can beat you now? Didn't know we lived under the Iron Curtain.

ccrunner609;723421 wrote:and from that extremely good video you know that the cops werent standing just off camera telling them to get down or stop before they got into the video? Plus we dont know what was said......maybe the guy told the cop to suckhis dick or the girl told the cop to fuck off.

we have a winner!!!

Pick6;723450 wrote:we have a winner!!!

None of that excuses body slamming the girl

I Wear Pants;723410 wrote:That reads "the cops can do whatever they want".

I'm not saying that they should have just stood by. But watch the video, it didn't look like either was resisting and the dude just came in swinging. Come in and say "hands behind your back" or "get on the ground". If they don't do that then sure.

Dude, the cop didn't come in just swinging the nightstick! You can see him tell the dude to get down on the ground a few times and the dude doesn't comply. Sorry, you're getting subdued because you didn't listen. You keep claiming that the cops "can do whatever they want" but your whole argument seems to be based on "the people committing an assult in the middle of the road have a right to NOT listen to the police and not be subdued". Sorry, but THAT'S not how it works, while we're on the topic of that's not how stuff works. A police officer's job in a situation like this is to protect INNOCENT people, not to protect your dumbass because you can't follow orders, after they just witnessed you committing an assult. I fail to feel bad for people who commit a crime right in front of the police and then bitch and complain about how the cops violated their rights when they don't comply with the cops orders. In an earlier post, you said the dude has the right to ask "why?" he should get on the ground? Maybe beating the fuck out of the people in the car that was caught on videotape has something to do with it. Common sense dictates that if you're taking part in an assult, it's not a big mystery why the cops are ordering you to the ground. But stupid is always rewarded, and this video is proof. Douchebag was walking around like a real hardass, and then didn't listen to the cops, until he got clubbed a few times. Then he wasn't so tough.

As I said earlier, the only part I have a problem with is the end where he slams the girl to the groud...that WAS excessive given the fact that she had already been maced and was away from the scene...he caught up to her easily, all he had to do was slap on the cuffs and go deliver her to the other cop that had another person detained. But don't let that part influence the rest of the video.

bigkahuna;723449 wrote:Audio?

Can you hear anything like that?

So, you tell a cop to fuck off, and he can beat you now? Didn't know we lived under the Iron Curtain.

Maybe she told the cops she was gonna stab him? We can do this all day long, and it's easy to sit back and judge after the fact. Let me ask you this, since you seem to have all the answers here...if you were a cop, and you responded to the scene of an assult like this, would you really be taking your time to get the situation under control? You come into a situation where there has already been violence, and you don't know if they're just throwing punches, or if somebody's got a knife or gun or some other kind of weapon...you run up yelling at them to get on the ground and they don't listen. I'm sure you'd be just as polite and courteous as you are on here :rolleyes: I'd never want the job of a cop...it's just like being a coach, because EVERYBODY can always do your job better than you, until of course, they actually try it.

Like I said, they're not trained to use their weapons as a first resort.

The reason I "have all of the answers" is because my brother-in-law is a cop. My wife's dated a cop for 6 years, and we are friends with a lot of the people on the force in her home town.

If he would have come in and used brute force (bear hug, or how he did the girl at the end...), and had a struggle, then I wouldn't have a problem with laying the lumber.

Watch the video again, there is NO physical contact between the cop and the guy UNTIL he smacks him with the club. He doesn't grab him or anything. The cop comes in and the guy walks away from the situation, and the club comes out. It's like every other situation with cops, they show up, and you're all of a sudden cool and calm, until you get the shit beat out of you.

bigkahuna;723593 wrote: If he would have come in and used brute force (bear hug, or how he did the girl at the end...), and had a struggle, then I wouldn't have a problem with laying the lumber.

Watch the video again, there is NO physical contact between the cop and the guy UNTIL he smacks him with the club. He doesn't grab him or anything. The cop comes in and the guy walks away from the situation, and the club comes out. It's like every other situation with cops, they show up, and you're all of a sudden cool and calm, until you get the shit beat out of you.

actually you are wrong, watch the video again. there is physical contact with the cop and the guy before he gets whacked. when the cops first arrive they try and grab the guy and put him on the hood of the SUV but he slips away from them. you can see the cop then grab for his ASP and extend it as he is following the guy around to the back of the car. and of course the guy acts like he didnt do anything wrong and ignores the cops.

bigkahuna;723593 wrote:Like I said, they're not trained to use their weapons as a first resort.

The reason I "have all of the answers" is because my brother-in-law is a cop. My wife's dated a cop for 6 years, and we are friends with a lot of the people on the force in her home town.

If he would have come in and used brute force (bear hug, or how he did the girl at the end...), and had a struggle, then I wouldn't have a problem with laying the lumber.

Watch the video again, there is NO physical contact between the cop and the guy UNTIL he smacks him with the club. He doesn't grab him or anything. The cop comes in and the guy walks away from the situation, and the club comes out. It's like every other situation with cops, they show up, and you're all of a sudden cool and calm, until you get the shit beat out of you.

And I respect that. My best friend since we were 12 is a cop, I have 3 family friends who are sheriffs in my county and 2 more that are retired, including a former chief of police. And I guarantee you that if I showed this to any of them (and I have, to two of them) their response would be the same as mine. They agree that they way they treated the girl, especially at the end IS EXCESSIVE. However, my friend (the cop) put it this way..."If I come to the scene of a violent crime like an assult and the assult is still going on and I witness it, the offender(s) have exactly 10 seconds to comply with orders to cease their actions and get on the ground so they can be handcuffed and order can be restored before it has the potential to escalate...if they CHOOSE not to do that, they are choosing to resist a police officer...add in the fact that we [police] have no way to know if they are armed or carrying a weapon, since they chose not to lay down so they can be searched and handcuffed, we have to assume that they are dangerous, and with a large crowd around like that, there's no way in hell we would risk someone pulling out a weapon, especially a gun, and firing at myself, my partner, or even worse, shooting someone in that car or in the crowd. Can you imagine if they didn't subdue these two that quickly, and one of them pulled out a gun and shot somebody? Could you imagine the lawsuits and outcry from the public about police officers being present and NOT preventing that from happening? Basically, we regard their non-compliance and resistance to the arresting officer as reasonable cause to subdue them with non-lethal force, such as his club or the mace, so that they no longer pose a legitimate threat to us [police] and innocent bystanders. Of course, my recommendation to people who are ever involved in any altercation like this, is to do what the officer says if one approaches you. Had either one of them just listened the first time and went to the ground, this whole scene would have been avoided".

"It's like every other situation with cops, they show up, and you're all of a sudden cool and calm, until you get the shit beat out of you"

Well see, the problem with that is the cop didn't tell him to go stand off to the side and be all "cool and calm", he told him to get the fuck on the ground. And the dude didn't do it. Failing to comply with a cop's demand when he witness you committing a crime = resisting arrest. The exact same way that if a cop pulls you over tomorrow, and you get out of your car, and he orders you back into your car and you don't listen, you can be subdued. Same concept. You can't just not cooperate with the police when you break a law and expect nothing to come of it. If you aren't willing to cooperate that's fine, but that becomes just cause to subdue you by nonleathal means.

ccrunner609;723421 wrote:and from that extremely good video you know that the cops werent standing just off camera telling them to get down or stop before they got into the video? Plus we dont know what was said......maybe the guy told the cop to suckhis dick or the girl told the cop to fuck off.

You do know that you are perfectly within your legal bounds to do this right?

I'd include the other in most cases but depending on how the cop took the "suck my dick" comment I guess it could be considered imposition or something.


Red Skin, I'm okay with the protocol that your cop friend described there (not that cops or anyone need my approval) . Still don't get why the dude needed hit while on the ground though.

I Wear Pants;723759 wrote:
Red Skin, I'm okay with the protocol that your cop friend described there (not that cops or anyone need my approval) . Still don't get why the dude needed hit while on the ground though.

And that part I agree with too, including slamming the girl into the ground. All that is excessive. I was only responding to the part that several people seem to have a problem with, of the cop coming in and "swinging his club first". Should NOT hit him after he's on the ground and subdued...just get the cuffs on, and should not slam the girl down after she's already been maced/stunned...again, just get the cuffs on. BUT I have 0 problem, and never will, with the way the cop got him on the ground, nor do I have a problem with him macing the girl when she runs in and gets in his face while he's dealing with the male offender.

I guess I may have a problem with the mace depending on what was being said and stuff. If she was enraged and just yelling swears at him and stuff I can see where he may think that she could potentially do something dangerous. If she was saying something like "why are you hitting him when he's on the ground and subdued" I'm a bit less enthused about the mace. And the slam just wasn't needed.

The reason people probably get so upset about these sorts of things is that the officer will likely see no punishment at all. If he does it will be a "reprimand" or something which amounts to his boss saying "hey, we have to tell you not to do that so we don't look as bad in the papers" instead of any actual punishment that would lead the officer to behave differently in the future.

I Wear Pants;723759 wrote: Red Skin, I'm okay with the protocol that your cop friend described there (not that cops or anyone need my approval) . Still don't get why the dude needed hit while on the ground though.

not saying it was the ideal reaction by the officer, but the dude also didnt exactly goto the ground. he first went to his knees, then when he was finally made to goto the ground, he was told to put his hands behind his back and just left his arms infront of him.

I Wear Pants;723768 wrote: The reason people probably get so upset about these sorts of things is that the officer will likely see no punishment at all. If he does it will be a "reprimand" or something which amounts to his boss saying "hey, we have to tell you not to do that so we don't look as bad in the papers" instead of any actual punishment that would lead the officer to behave differently in the future.

personally i think that is a misconception you have.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20044777-504083.html

Redskin,

I didn't reply because your response was so long lol. The biggest issue I have is hitting the guy again while he's on the ground and the entire situation with the girl. The first part of the video with the guy trying to be subdued could be called a wash, I didn't notice the arm grab at first, but it's there. Did it have to go to the club? Maybe so, maybe not, but nothing that the girl did warranted it.

bigkahuna;723841 wrote:Redskin,

I didn't reply because your response was so long lol. The biggest issue I have is hitting the guy again while he's on the ground and the entire situation with the girl. The first part of the video with the guy trying to be subdued could be called a wash, I didn't notice the arm grab at first, but it's there. Did it have to go to the club? Maybe so, maybe not, but nothing that the girl did warranted it.

the girl tried grabbing the cop's chest. you dont touch cops in general, especially in a violent situation like that.

So how do you explain the cop dragging the girl by the waistband then body slamming her?

LJ;724153 wrote:So how do you explain the cop dragging the girl by the waistband then body slamming her?

i cant, i am not that cop. the adrenaline was flowing and he probably over estimated how much it would take to get her on the ground. the girl hadnt complied yet to the point, on the "ask, tell, make" scale, she was well beyond the make point.

Glory Days;724603 wrote:i cant, i am not that cop. the adrenaline was flowing and he probably over estimated how much it would take to get her on the ground. the girl hadnt complied yet to the point, on the "ask, tell, make" scale, she was well beyond the make point.

I think you are reaching there. He let the adrenaline get the best of him and planted that girl into the ground. She was obviously no threat once he pepper sprayed her. He did it to be a dick IMO.

dwccrew;725257 wrote:I think you are reaching there. He let the adrenaline get the best of him and planted that girl into the ground. She was obviously no threat once he pepper sprayed her. He did it to be a dick IMO.

agreed.

ccrunner609;725488 wrote:I guess if you arent being a stupid drunk in the street fighting and getting in the cops face then you dont get slammed. You are obviously not a threat if you act like a person that has some sense

agreed.

What about the possibility she went down so hard because she was piss drunk and disoriented by pepper spray? I don't have an issue with the cop dragging her by the belt - she's not wearing much and you aren't risking ripping clothes or otherwise causing physical harm by grabbing an arm or something.

ccrunner609;725488 wrote:I guess if you arent being a stupid drunk in the street fighting and getting in the cops face then you dont get slammed. You are obviously not a threat if you act like a person that has some sense

While this is true, it certainly doesn't justify excessive force.
ex·ces·sive

[ik-ses-iv]
–adjective

going beyond the usual, necessary, or proper limit or degree;

gut;726968 wrote:What about the possibility she went down so hard because she was piss drunk and disoriented by pepper spray? I don't have an issue with the cop dragging her by the belt - she's not wearing much and you aren't risking ripping clothes or otherwise causing physical harm by grabbing an arm or something.

You would go down just as hard sober. He picked her up by her waistband and swept out her legs.