O-Trap;698104 wrote:I would say Modest Mouse (who I enjoy, actually) oversimplifies.

If someone has the power to do something, it doesn't necessitate that he/she/it wields it constantly. A control freak seizes power whenever possible, while God allows his creation to play itself out for the most part, I think. I would hardly call that a control freak.

So you're more of a "god set the game up, you've got to play it" guy then?

I think the perspective Modest Mouse was looking at in that song and that I was trying to comment on are the ones who hold that God has a plan for each and every one of us and say things like "it was meant to be" or "it was just their time". I believe phrases like that merely serve to remove the idea of responsibility from us.

I Wear Pants;698126 wrote:So you're more of a "god set the game up, you've got to play it" guy then?

I think the perspective Modest Mouse was looking at in that song and that I was trying to comment on are the ones who hold that God has a plan for each and every one of us and say things like "it was meant to be" or "it was just their time". I believe phrases like that merely serve to remove the idea of responsibility from us.

I agree. To a large extent, I think those ideas are (pardon my language) bullshit.

What about the kid in India who dies young, and only his parents mourn his death (and it only embitters them toward any deity who exists)? What purpose did his life serve?

I think God has a plan for the entire game, but I don't think he's manipulating our every move (right down to whether I choose coffee or tea tomorrow morning at work). He made the game, board and pieces included. He made the rules for the game. We, the game pieces, have the option of either playing the game the way that it was meant to be played as pieces, or we can try to play some other game on the game board, where we make up the rules.

Unfortunately, I'm not certain the game analogy is a complete parallel, as I think it would break down with the endgame, but in a nutshell, you've got my sentiment.

My view of God is probably far less emotionally appealing and sentimental than most. My prayer regarding life would be less like "Thank you for every breath I take," and more like "Thank you for providing a world in which I'm able to live for another day." While I do think God remains intimate, I don't think he's nearly as hands-on with things that exist in my life outside myself. He may help me have the proper attitude toward others, or he may help remind me to have a proper respect for authority when it may seem easier not to. I don't, however, subscribe to the belief that God makes frequent exceptions to his natural laws (curing people, making things appear from thin air, etc).

In relation to how I ought to live, I (unlike most Christians it would seem) look to Old Testament people like Abraham, Noah, and Moses. They had no promise of heaven, or any afterlife at all. As far as they knew, they were worm food when they died. Yet, they still found value in living out the life that God communicated he wanted them to live out. It wasn't for a reward. It was purely from a sense of "oughtness." I honestly don't care WHAT happens to me when I die. That's up to God. Not me. What is up to me is to play the game as best I can.

I think I agree with a lot of what you said.

This isn't directly related but you speaking about death reminded me of an article that at worst is an interesting read. https://bardcan.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/thoughts-on-the-toughest-questions-we-face/

O-Trap;698136 wrote:In relation to how I ought to live, I (unlike most Christians it would seem) look to Old Testament people like Abraham, Noah, and Moses. They had no promise of heaven, or any afterlife at all. As far as they knew, they were worm food when they died. Yet, they still found value in living out the life that God communicated he wanted them to live out. It wasn't for a reward. It was purely from a sense of "oughtness." I honestly don't care WHAT happens to me when I die. That's up to God. Not me. What is up to me is to play the game as best I can.

I find this interesting in the aspect that I feel (as you said) "most Christians" don't look to OT folks. My opinion is because it would be easy to (entering trope mode) class the OT version as Lawful Evil. He's always in charge, delivers harsh punishments on people who even question him, utterly destroys a loyal follower to win a bet, doesn't allow a super-loyal right-hand man to reach the promised land due to one moment of frustration, has that guy's followers afflicted with things like leprosy and snake attacks for wishing they had things better and so on for infinity. New Testament dude seemed a lot more cool about things. Having an avatar who was a cool "peace-n-love" hippie fighting the system is a lot better than having Mr. Grumpypants ordering you around.

O-Trap;697650 wrote:In a sense, then, this sounds hedonistic, because your actions make you feel good, which suggests they are moral.

What if pinching the heads off mice or punching my mailman in the face make me feel good? It would seem a defeater in the view of many hedonists.

Something else I find interesting. Back when I was in college, I took a low-level philosophy course to fill some requirement or other. The professor, quite frankly, sucked. We were talking about theories behind a person's reason for doing good deeds. One theory revolved around the "for personal gain" concept. Whether it be abiding laws because of fear of punishment or volunteering because of the good PR or being a great person in order for "next-life" rewards. He dismissed this with some "but that doesn't sound very nice, so it's not right" lame-ass shit.

What do you think about that? Not just you as a person, but what you tend to see from other people. Even some of the most altruistic people I know make reference to good deeds leading to salvation and to be honest, beloved icons like the "golden rule" (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) back it up (be good so others are good to you). I'm not saying NOBODY ever does anything good unless they know that it will give them physical/spiritual/emotional rewards, but I think a lot of good a lot of people do comes from a real or perceived knowledge they'll benefit in some way.

password;698090 wrote:I have a hard time with people that always quote bits and pieces from the bible as if they were there when these comments were spoken.My big question is about proof and I have yet to be shown proof that anything in the bible is real and that it is not just some bestseller book that was written thousands of years ago by some cult leader.You can not even tell me when jesus was born because it is claimed that god did not want to provide that information to the public and you are told he was born from a virgin because he said he was.The only claim to jesus being the son of god was him telling everyone that, so where is the proof? I would like to see someone tell that story today and claim their mother was a virgin and he is the son of god.He would be locked in an institution for a very long time.

No pictures = No proof

http://bible.org/article/birth-jesus-christ
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/11_10

I guess i could have just posted the scripture verses but... I know how you feel about that now.

Skyhook79;697617 wrote:"I am not blaming god for what he does, I'm saying if you believe in him, and go to him for all your needs, why is this not his fault? Why is this view not his view? You say jesus is your savior, and god gave you that, well in your mind god gave these gay hating douchebags. God gave these terrorists, god gave these abortion babies, rape babies, etc. God is not responsible for just the good."


God also gives every person you listed there the same opportunity at Grace and Salvation. Does not mean they are going to accept it or abide by Jesus teachings.
God does not cause bad things to happen, he allows them to happen and works thru them to his Glory. He did not create robots he created Man in his image. It is our selfish, self destructive nature that does bad things to people and things, not God.

"But Joesph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done,the saving of many lives."
Gen 50: 19,20.

I'm still trying to get caught up in this thread so if someone else has pointed this out later, I apologize for repeating it. Now on to the portion I have in bold!

Can you imagine if we mere mortal tried to use this excuse?

Police: Mother of twin boys allowed the abuse, faces charges
Girl Says Mother Allowed Father to Rape, Impregnate Sister
Bungling social services allowed Munchausen's mother to abuse her own children for years
Mother 'allowed three teens to use her 18-month-old son as a punch bag'

"...but Your Honor, I did not cause these bad things to happen! I merely allowed them to happen..."

Isn't it funny that some of us hold ourselves to a higher standard than gods?

Buckeyechick;697951 wrote:I can't prove conclusively that he exists any more than you can prove he does not exist. The reasons or evidence I would and/or could give can be debated to death especially if someone has decided that they are not going to believe.

A former atheist, Marilyn Adamson, put it this way:

"If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon."

I’m going to provide a link to her answering the question you asked me.

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

You can choose to believe or not believe that is your right just as it is mine to believe. I am not in the business to “force” someone to believe the same as I do. I respect one’s right to believe what they want but I expect that same respect in return.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Now STFU!




















I'm only kidding!

Bigred1995;698279 wrote:1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Now STFU!




















I'm only kidding!

LOL!

Well played!

Bigred1995;698279 wrote:1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Now STFU!


















I'm only kidding!

LOL. Ohhh you got my temper going there for a white hot min. Well played indeed.

I used to make Bible reference jokes in my Senior Comprehensive class in college. I used this one (there was only one girl in the class) once, and she was good-natured about it, but she shot right back later. I had used a negative one too many times in a sentence (such that the sentence was the opposite of what I meant), and she replied with, "Revelation 21:8! Liars go to hell!"

I lol'd.

LOL O-Trap, love it!

Buckeyechick;698350 wrote:LOL O-Trap, love it!

She was very witty, and remarkably intelligent. Everyone, myself included, got quite a kick out of her little snipe.

I believe she's a university professor now, but I don't recall where.

Skyhook79;698234 wrote:http://bible.org/article/birth-jesus-christ
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/11_10

I guess i could have just posted the scripture verses but... I know how you feel about that now.

I have read the story in your links and it still does not tell me anything more than someone said this is how it happened.I am not trying to be an asshole about all this but I do think that people are raised with the idea of, you will live a miserable life and god will punish you with burning in hell and suffering for you beliefs if you do not bow down and proclaim your faith to him.People are always looking for ways to justify their way of life with threats and claims of miracles.What makes the catholic church and belief of god right? The church has had more problems than any other religion and they include money laundering,sexual abuse,murder and numerous other crimes and this is just at the vatican.Sounds like a very elaborate and well planned con game that has went on for centuries.When the church ask for donations and favors it is ok but when another religion does the same thing they are branded a bogus religion, could it be that the church is worried that they are losing money if someone else gets it before them?

I can't prove conclusively that he exists any more than you can prove he does not exist.

I honestly stopped reading after I read this. I believe that a flying invisible Unicorn exists and since you can't prove me wrong, then it must exist.

GG. LOL

sleeper;698697 wrote:I honestly stopped reading after I read this. I believe that a flying invisible Unicorn exists and since you can't prove me wrong, then it must exist.

GG. LOL

Whatever dude, it is your right to believe or not believe as you like.

password;698689 wrote:I have read the story in your links and it still does not tell me anything more than someone said this is how it happened.I am not trying to be an asshole about all this but I do think that people are raised with the idea of, you will live a miserable life and god will punish you with burning in hell and suffering for you beliefs if you do not bow down and proclaim your faith to him.People are always looking for ways to justify their way of life with threats and claims of miracles.What makes the catholic church and belief of god right? The church has had more problems than any other religion and they include money laundering,sexual abuse,murder and numerous other crimes and this is just at the vatican.Sounds like a very elaborate and well planned con game that has went on for centuries.When the church ask for donations and favors it is ok but when another religion does the same thing they are branded a bogus religion, could it be that the church is worried that they are losing money if someone else gets it before them?

The "Church", "Religion" and true Followers of Christ are not necessarily linked together. The "Church" that Jesus and Paul describes in the Book of Acts is the model. Many Churches fail in their commission like many things in the secular world do. It does not make God, Jesus or the Bible any less relevent or true.
Every Religion takes a certain amount of Faith, Christianity is no different. People in the days of when Jesus walked the Earth saw him and touched him, witnessed him perform miracle after miracle and still did not believe. Your statement "No pictures=no proof" would it really make someone believe or would they just dis- credit it like the Jews did and crucify Jesus anyway? I would hope it would but history says many,many did not.

"Blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe" John 20:29

Skyhook79;698738 wrote:The "Church", "Religion" and true Followers of Christ are not necessarily linked together. The "Church" that Jesus and Paul describes in the Book of Acts is the model. Many Churches fail in their commission like many things in the secular world do. It does not make God, Jesus or the Bible any less relevent or true.
Every Religion takes a certain amount of Faith, Christianity is no different. People in the days of when Jesus walked the Earth saw him and touched him, witnessed him perform miracle after miracle and still did not believe. Your statement "No pictures=no proof" would it really make someone believe or would they just dis- credit it like the Jews did and crucify Jesus anyway? I would hope it would but history says many,many did not.

"Blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe" John 20:29

Great post!

Skyhook79;698738 wrote:The "Church", "Religion" and true Followers of Christ are not necessarily linked together. The "Church" that Jesus and Paul describes in the Book of Acts is the model. Many Churches fail in their commission like many things in the secular world do. It does not make God, Jesus or the Bible any less relevent or true.
Every Religion takes a certain amount of Faith, Christianity is no different. People in the days of when Jesus walked the Earth saw him and touched him, witnessed him perform miracle after miracle and still did not believe. Your statement "No pictures=no proof" would it really make someone believe or would they just dis- credit it like the Jews did and crucify Jesus anyway? I would hope it would but history says many,many did not.

"Blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe" John 20:29

Let me clear the "No Picture = No Proof" comment first, I was joking.
If you produced pictures then I would be more of a skeptic than I am now, considering their was no photography in those days.
My question should have been more along the lines of real vs fake when it comes to the bible.Just because it is written in a book does not make it real.There have been people that have given up everything they have owned because the church needed them and these people lived a lonely and poor life.They were not given any proof that they were going to heaven anymore than the person that did not follow god except for what they were told by the priest,preacher or minister that needed them.
I have a great example of what I mean by the threats that children are given when they are young.I attended a catholic school my whole life here in Ohio and in Florida with the greatest response coming from a priest in high school when I asked how does he know that god is real, he tells me that I should not question the lord but embrace him if I want to go to heaven, I then asked him if that meant that I would go to hell and he looks me in the eyes and says, Do you really want to take that chance.

password;698769 wrote:Let me clear the "No Picture = No Proof" comment first, I was joking.
If you produced pictures then I would be more of a skeptic than I am now, considering their was no photography in those days.
My question should have been more along the lines of real vs fake when it comes to the bible.Just because it is written in a book does not make it real.There have been people that have given up everything they have owned because the church needed them and these people lived a lonely and poor life.They were not given any proof that they were going to heaven anymore than the person that did not follow god except for what they were told by the priest,preacher or minister that needed them.
I have a great example of what I mean by the threats that children are given when they are young.I attended a catholic school my whole life here in Ohio and in Florida with the greatest response coming from a priest in high school when I asked how does he know that god is real, he tells me that I should not question the lord but embrace him if I want to go to heaven, I then asked him if that meant that I would go to hell and he looks me in the eyes and says, Do you really want to take that chance.

The Bible clearly states that you should be prepared to give the reason as to why you believe.

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect." 1 Peter 3:15

Evidently that particular Priest did you a dis- service by his response to you and I can see how that experience would affect your current state of mind but I would encourage you to not let it end there.

Skyhook79;698865 wrote:"... but do this with gentleness and respect."

When I wasn't a believer, this was the biggest reason I didn't like many Christians. I could live with what I perceived as their lack of a logical worldview. However, even if I tried to be kind in our discussion, it seemed that many were self-righteous, arrogant pricks about our disagreement.

I rarely saw much "speaking [of] the truth in love."

Since some of you claim to be smart on here, I do need some advice from you regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. Should we pass a law that states that all women must say if they are menstrating or not when they enter a room?

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? (HUmmm...if the policeman does it, is he not working on the sabbath, and should be delt a death blow too?)

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyesterblend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can
help.

how do we know that these bible guys actually went to heaven? I mean if followers of "god" don't get shown the afterlife, what makes you think you guys will? Please don't come at me with a bible verse(skyhook)

password;699033 wrote:Since some of you claim to be smart on here, I do need some advice from you regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. Should we pass a law that states that all women must say if they are menstrating or not when they enter a room?

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? (HUmmm...if the policeman does it, is he not working on the sabbath, and should be delt a death blow too?)

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyesterblend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can
help.

come on o-trap, seriously? now your questioning your eyesight? What god punishes people for not having perfect vision? Wouldn't you rather just not have to deal with that shit(honest question not bein a smart ass)

I believe the proper answer is that those rules are ancient laws that have no business in modern society. Although...so many things in books just like that such as the 10 Commandments, David and Goliath, Joseph and his coat, Noah's Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. are all looked at as important teachings. Apparently, their holy book is this thing where some things are codes to live by and other things are commanded of the people by one of those other gods who got "proven" false (like selling a daughter into slavery or killing someone who works on the Sabbath).

No middle ground, people. By putting your own moral qualms upon "god's" word, you're only damning yourselves!

I found them questions on another site about the same subject and was wondering if their were any real answers to them.

So are you saying that ancient laws were wrong? Is not the bible a book of ancient laws and beliefs that are still followed today by millions of people looking for someone to tell them how to live.

A question to think about, When an athiest dies what happens to them and where do they go? We have all been told that if you beleive in god you will go to heaven when you die.