CenterBHSFan;645646 wrote:Of course I'm delusional. I post on here, don't I?! lol

"even if" is as hypothetical as "believing", don't ya think? It takes just the same amount of faith to NOT believe as it does to believe, IMO. Not to mention a certain amount of zealotry.

Also, the only way to be truly ambivalent about it would be through pure laziness and having an uncurious mind, I think.

The problem with believing is you have no prior proof as to why you believe in the things that you do. For example, the sun, you can see the sun, the effects are easy to see, so naturally you believe in the sun. It's easy to construct the beginning of your belief in the sun. Now, take god, why did you start believing in god? Chances are, like most people, you don't have a good answer, but now, no one can change your mind unless someone prove's otherwise.

That is purely irrational, thus you are delusional.

sleeper;645852 wrote:How can the leaders only be to blame? The sheep that follow them and allow them to extort their money/opinions are just as guilty.

The sheep have been hoodwinked into doing so. Somehow, they have been convinced (okay, some by themselves) that what the church leaders are doing with the money or authority or influence is good. I'm not saying it never is, either.

However, I would say that there are WAY too many cases of church leaders who are allowed to act with complete impugnity, and thus, who get away with swindling anyone and everyone they can.

The "sheep" (in more ways than one, in this case) aren't doing anything wrong, volitionally. They are misled, and things they allow to go on may be wrong, but I'm willing to wager this is rarely if ever on purpose ... and if it is on purpose, I would lump them in with the church leader.

It's reasons like that which influenced my church's decision to not have an official "pastor" and to make all financial decisions as a group.

sleeper;645852 wrote:You don't need a religion to believe in God, and being in a religion offers no benefits. No you are not a good person because you go to church, nor does anyone care that you don't eat bacon because it makes the soul dirty.

Religions are the problem, people should find something better to do with their time.

I would contend that a "religion" was never the goal. It has been a biproduct of a worldview developing too much of a subculture and being too intellectually incestuous.

For what it's worth, I agree with virtually all of your next-to-last paragraph. As far as the last one, I don't think "church" is the problem. I think that what "church" has come to mean is the problem. I can't speak for all non-naturalistic worldviews, but as far as mine is concerned, "church" should include things like gathering together to do events that benefit the community, carrying out special projects for a particular person in need of something that a group could handle better, or something similar. Yes, I think it's good to get together and try to learn more about the God of the universe, but I don't think church was EVER intended to be a once-a-week thing where people put on special clothing, went to a special building, sat quietly, and listened to one person's take on the Scriptures week after week after week.

As it has gotten that way, I agree. People really should, and could, be doing better things with their time.

O-Trap;645868 wrote:but I don't think church was EVER intended to be a once-a-week thing where people put on special clothing, went to a special building, sat quietly, and listened to one person's take on the Scriptures week after week after week.

I agree and view things the way you have stated them O-Trap (well, should specify -- especially this last post).

But I do think that "church" was what we do it now...within the Jewish "religion" that is exactly what it was. The Holy of Holies. The Jewish temples. All of that religious tradition is based around a "holy place" where people would go and "meet God." Another reason why we have "Christian" churches, they modeled themselves after the old education-teaching styles of lecturing AND the Jewish practices of worshiping within a temple.

"but I don't think church was EVER intended to be a once-a-week thing where people put on special clothing, went to a special building, sat quietly, and listened to one person's take on the Scriptures week after week after week."


I totally agree, the Book of Acts describes what the Early Church should be and was. Over the years it has changed, not all churches ,but most into what you desribed.

This thread is a clusterfuck. It's quite simple:

God is real if you need a purpose to live.

I say it takes more Faith/belief to think there is no god than it does to believe there is....I mean how the eff did we get here then??? Just sayin the puddle thing is pretty outrageous....aliens drop us here?....microscopic life on a meteor? Help me out

I went to church a handful of times in my life and am not religious at all and I have no problem accepting evolution. Perhaps you've heard of it?

First off, I want to say that I was brought up Catholic and I do believe in God. Second I want to say that I am not proud to be Catholic. While I do believe in many Catholic ways, there are some practices that I find rather "controlling" and "mind warping".

First of all I do NOT believe in confession to a priest. While I do believe that "most" Catholic priests are good people, what good does this do "relaying" the message? Supposedly priests are a mediator between you and God and all confessions MUST go through them or your confession is not valid. I call total effin bullchitty on this. God is ALWAYS listening, God is ALWAYS watching. If you devote your life to the way God would want you to live, then why do we have to tell a priest a confession? Funny thing is that every Catholic I talk to cannot answer this question... They simply revert to the same answer... Because our religion says so... If our religion said to jump off a bridge would you?

The Catholic religion insists that if you do NOT follow the rules according to the Bible and those before you have set, you will not be granted passage to eternal life... They also insist that all other religions are considered to be inferior and misguided so therefore those people who worship the same God, spend the same amount of time (if not more time) in church and doing religious activities are not able to enter the gates of Heaven... GIVE ME A BREAK!!! WE ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD!!!!!

The Catholic religion was put in place to establish "law" or to make people fear God's rejection due to their freewill choice of non-Catholic behavior. If everyone followed the same rules, then they were easy to control and easy to get money out of in fear that they would not be granted safe passage to Heaven if they didn't empty their pockets for the church and encourage other to do so as well. Its beautiful what fear can accomplish...

The ten commandments are basically the standard that America uses to uphold its judicial system... Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, thou shall abide EVERY rule in this book or you go to HELL because although the Bible states that God forgives ALL who seek his forgiveness and repent, you are and exception to that rule because we wrote down these here 10 rules that he doesn't forgive... LOL

I have a family member who works within a catholic diocese... Every year they pull a fast one on people when they talk about the diocese share campaign... This is just like the collection plate only you are supposed to give the max you can afford... Just want whoever was stupid enough to put themselves in the hole game my family member a nice bonus... I would think a "good" catholic would turn that bonus down and give it back to the church for goodwill towards God and his message. But then again, you do see some priest owning some nice rides...

Catholics protest at abortion clinics, they are the first ones to jump in your life and attempt to persuade you to join their religion if you have fallen on hard times, They do not accept other religions to be as good as theirs, All these "certified" catholic priests (not sure how they received God's blessing?) who molest kids are who you are supposed to confess to, and wost of all, Catholic people find it hard to keep their mouth shut when someone has an opinion on religion... What ever happen to "love thy neighbor"? What ever happened to "treat others how you would want to be treated"? Its an absolute joke...

Yes I believe in God and I will continue to speak to him in my own way and ask for his guidance. I'm not molesting children and I am not sticking my nose where it doesn't belong telling everyone my opinion is right and theirs is wrong, I will continue to ask guidance for my specific path in life and follow the signs that lead me to Heaven...

dlazz;645937 wrote:I went to church a handful of times in my life and am not religious at all and I have no problem accepting evolution. Perhaps you've heard of it?

im more of an intelligent design guy....i think parts of the theory of evolution make sense, but i dont think it does a great job with the origin of life part.....or the part about finding the missing links between species...i see adaptations to the environment but not necessarily the change in species links to get me to fully buy into the theory.

Gblock;645948 wrote:im more of an intelligent design guy....i think parts of the theory of evolution make sense,

Gblock;645948 wrote: but i dont think it does a great job with the origin of life part....

That's because it doesn't attempt to answer that! Simply put, evolution tries to explain how a specie evolves to be better suited for their environment.

Gblock;645948 wrote:.or the part about finding the missing links between species...

You obviously haven't even taken the time to even learn the basics about evolution. What "missing links" are you looking for, are you referring to transitional fossils? Once you do some basic research you'll have your answers!

Gblock;645948 wrote:i see adaptations to the environment but not necessarily the change in species links to get me to fully buy into the theory.

adaptations to the environment and evolution are two completely different things. Do some basic research and maybe you'll have a different view of evolution.

I don't claim to be an evolutionary biologist, but if I were to completely disagree with something I'd take the time do some basic research before hand; you obviously have not and apparently haven't ever had a basic biology class!

sleeper;645855 wrote:The problem with believing is you have no prior proof as to why you believe in the things that you do. For example, the sun, you can see the sun, the effects are easy to see, so naturally you believe in the sun. It's easy to construct the beginning of your belief in the sun. Now, take god, why did you start believing in god? Chances are, like most people, you don't have a good answer, but now, no one can change your mind unless someone prove's otherwise.
That is purely irrational, thus you are delusional.

Not true. There was a time when I was as far away from believing as you might be.

Again, it probably takes just the same amount of faith to not believe in God as it does to believe in God.

Bigred1995;645969 wrote:That's because it doesn't attempt to answer that! Simply put, evolution tries to explain how a specie evolves to be better suited for their environment.

You obviously haven't even taken the time to even learn the basics about evolution. What "missing links" are you looking for, are you referring to transitional fossils? Once you do some basic research you'll have your answers!

adaptations to the environment and evolution are two completely different things. Do some basic research and maybe you'll have a different view of evolution.

I don't claim to be an evolutionary biologist, but if I were to completely disagree with something I'd take the time do some basic research before hand; you obviously have not and apparently haven't ever had a basic biology class!

That's my point it doesn't have a solid explanation for how we got here....I have a great understanding of the THEORY.....But it has holes.....can it prove we came from apes? im typing on a touch phone so its hard to give long responses or go in depth but i do understand fully the theory of evolution btw.

dlazz;645937 wrote:I went to church a handful of times in my life and am not religious at all and I have no problem accepting evolution. Perhaps you've heard of it?

Just out of curiosity, which theory of evolution do you believe in? Chambers' Vestiges? Darwin's Origin of Species & Descent of Man? Alfred Russel Wallace's theory? Weismann? Kant? Linnaeus? Lamarck?

There are many theories of evolution. Just saying you "accept evolution" doesn't really say anything. None of the theories really "show" or "prove" how life began, really just saying we can from a single ancestor.

Evolution's biggest argument is that it does not explain where life began. It may say how far we've come since the first life-form (if there was a first life-form). Nothing has been proven through any evolutionary scientist that says, "This is where these common ancestors started."

CenterBHSFan;645971 wrote:Not true. There was a time when I was as far away from believing as you might be.

Again, it probably takes just the same amount of faith to not believe in God as it does to believe in God.

Why do you guys (& gals ) keep regurgitating this line? It simply is not true! I'm sure there is a population of people that don't believe based solely on things unknown, or because of lack of evidence, but for the majority it's not the case.
Besides, to say that it take as much faith to not believe than it does to believe is no different than saying you require as much faith to not believe in, Bal, Ra, Zeus, Oden, The Invisible Pink Unicorn, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster! The logic you use to not believe in those gods is the same logic we use to not believe in your god! So if you believe it takes a certain amount of faith to not believe in your god you must concede you require just as much faith to not believe in these other gods!

This is a basement thread. I wish it was in the basement so I could say what I really think.

Gblock;645984 wrote:That's my point it doesn't have a solid explanation for how we got here....I have a great understanding of the THEORY.....But it has holes.....can it prove we came from apes? im typing on a touch phone so its hard to give long responses or go in depth but i do understand fully the theory of evolution btw.

The part in bold tells me you know absolutely nothing about the theory of evolution! The reason it doesn't have a solid explanation about, "how we got here" is because it doesn't attempt too, and wasn't meant too! And the reason it has holes is because Darwin (at least the one I'm talking about) came up with it in the late 19th century! A great deal of those holes have been filled! There are holes in the Theory of Gravity, do you not believe in gravity?

Gblock;645984 wrote:That's my point it doesn't have a solid explanation for how we got here....I have a great understanding of the THEORY.....But it has holes.....can it prove we came from apes? im typing on a touch phone so its hard to give long responses or go in depth but i do understand fully the theory of evolution btw.

The part in bold tells me you know absolutely nothing about the theory of evolution! The reason it doesn't have a solid explanation about, "how we got here" is because it doesn't attempt too, and wasn't meant too! And the reason it has holes is because Darwin (at least the one I'm talking about) came up with it in the late 19th century! A great deal of those holes have been filled! There are holes in the Theory of Gravity, do you not believe in gravity?

Bigred1995;645993 wrote:Why do you guys (& gals ) keep regurgitating this line? It simply is not true! I'm sure there is a population of people that don't believe based solely on things unknown, or because of lack of evidence, but for the majority it's not the case...So if you believe it takes a certain amount of faith to not believe in your god you must concede you require just as much faith to not believe in these other gods!

It does hold some validity to it (the faith to not believe in God as the faith to believe in God).

Look at how many times this theory of evolution has changed. Which one should one believe and have faith in? That is, have faith that that theory is true meaning that a Creator is not true. If an evolution theory is true, that means the possibility there is no God, which could mean that there is no one way to get to Heaven (Christian belief). If an evolution theory is not true, that means the possibility of a God, which could mean that there is only one way to get to Heaven (Christian belief). How is that not having faith? Especially with as often as what science changes?

Just look at the Zodiac for example. There are many people that had faith in the astrology/astronomy, which is a science, that are now a different "sign" than they were before. Yes, it's not necessarily affecting Americans, but it does affect some people. So what about those who happened to live by those other signs for many years...they had the faith that the sciences revealed something about their life and had a direction for it -- only to be wronged how many years later?

Bigred1995;645998 wrote:The part in bold tells me you know absolutely nothing about the theory of evolution! The reason it doesn't have a solid explanation about, "how we got here" is because it doesn't attempt too, and wasn't meant too! And the reason it has holes is because Darwin (at least the one I'm talking about) came up with it in the late 19th century! A great deal of those holes have been filled! There are holes in the Theory of Gravity, do you not believe in gravity?

My original question was about origin of life not evolution. That was a digression on my part...I personally believe in god and evolution as his design...I was just saying that evolution is not taught as a fact but rather a theory it has never been proven

OSH;645992 wrote:None of the theories really "show" or "prove" how life began

I don't really <i>care</i> where life began. Evolution, however, makes more sense than "poof, there it is".

dlazz;646009 wrote:I don't really <i>care</i> where life began. Evolution, however, makes more sense than "poof, there it is".

Well when u teach evolution in school that basically is what you teach when you talk about life spontaneously occurring in a primordial soup

so much to sort through that I don't even have time...as far as otraps response to mine, when i get time i'll come back and answer that. As far as someone who said religion was supposed to be a once a week thing, what if religion and the idea of gathering to believe in something was just jesus' way of making a living? I mean hell, if people believed me that I performed miracles and parted seas and all that, why wouldn't I tell people hey for this price you can come follow me around and listen to what I say? I mean I know that's an ignorant way of thinking, but I couldn't word it better seeing as I'm drinking. I feel like this is a conversation to be had over a brew

dlazz;646009 wrote:I don't really <i>care</i> where life began. Evolution, however, makes more sense than "poof, there it is".

Okay, so you don't care where life began, you just believe in evolution because it makes sense that there was some evolving of creatures? I guess I do not understand why one would support evolution without caring about where life began. We all do believe evolution to some extent, because species evolving happens...

But the whole religion/evolution debate is present because religion explains how life began and how we came to life and evolution says, "No, we weren't created like that...we evolved from [insert life-form here]." For many, many years it was at odds with religion because of the fact that it says, "God didn't create you like that, you evolved to become what you are." When, we read that we were "created in His image."

Gblock;646018 wrote:Well when u teach evolution in school that basically is what you teach when you talk about life spontaneously occurring in a primordial soup

Apparently they didn't teach English in your school.

Idiot Thread of the Week, whens the abortion thread coming?