Writerbuckeye;595707 wrote:State of mind has NOTHING to do with committing a crime.

If you have no intent to kill a guy but hit him in the mouth, and he falls, hits his head and dies -- you are guilty of manslaughter. Your state of mind doesn't enter into the equation.

If you don't intend to kill someone when you drive drunk, you are still guilty of vehicular homicide in some form.

If you are playing with a gun and point it at someone, pull the trigger but don't know the gun is loaded and someone dies, you are still guilty of a crime.

Ignorance is not a defense for breaking the law. Or haven't you ever heard that before?

You're citing different culpable states of mind such as negligence and recklessness. Pleas read: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Even accepting that nonsense -- they obviously know NOW that their very existence on US soil is a crime and have known this in all likelihood for a long time. At what point do you begin to hold folks...many of them now legally adults...responsible for THEIR OWN actions?

But that's not even the crux of this argument for me. The key to everything here is GIVING AWAY CITIZENSHIP to people who haven't done their due diligence to deserve it...and putting them AHEAD of people who have worked hard and followed the rules.

The entire law is patently unfair as one portion of the same group of people (those who would be immigrants) is being treated far better than another if this bill becomes law. I'm no Constitutional scholar but doesn't that go against the whole idea of equal treatment under the law?

Again, my main argument against this: it simply isn't a reasonable, fair and equitable way to determine who gets citizenship.

Please tell me how you justify this to the thousands of folks who have been playing by the rules all these decades.

Writerbuckeye;595784 wrote:Again, my main argument against this: it simply isn't a reasonable, fair and equitable way to determine who gets citizenship.

Reasonable, fair, equal, and legal mean NOTHING to Dems who are salivating over the millions of instant new votes they'd receive from Mexican "immigrants" who have ignored U.S. law to be here.

Writerbuckeye;595784 wrote:Please tell me how you justify this to the thousands of folks who have been playing by the rules all these decades.

Justify it? He can't.

It's an insult to the millions of Germans, Italians, Poles, etc. who entered this country legally through Ellis Island in the past - the ones who spent years studying our culture, language, and history - who eventually assimilated themselves into our society and built themselves fruitful lives here for themselves and their offspring - AND to the existing would-be immigrants who currently stand in lines at American embassies across the globe seeking legal American citizenship.

This is not about racism, this is not about bigotry, this is not about eeeeevil white conservative American males being afraid of Mexicans "stealing" valuable U.S. janitorial jobs. It's about wanting Mexican immigrants to stand in line with everyone else to enter this great country LEGALLY.

WTF is so hard to understand about that?

Has anyone watched the movie Machete?

I'll cut straight to the point of the post. I was excited to see this movie and then after I saw it I was enraged. Basically it was saying Americans are evil and that we are trying to keep everyone out of the country. They went as far in the movie to say we keep people out that have worked their whole lives trying to get to America. It was quite a crock. Even had De Niro playing a McCain type senator even though they portrayed him as racist and that is just stupid. Hasn't McCain been for immigration most of his career?

bigdaddy, unfortunately there are folks that believe those same things. Just take a look at refalcons post lolol

CenterBHSFan;596116 wrote:bigdaddy, unfortunately there are folks that believe those same things. Just take a look at refalcons post lolol

Yeah, pretty sad stuff.

tk421;594905 wrote:The problem is that this bill is for illegal immigrants who have been in this country for at least 5 years. It is not a new way for anyone who wants to come to this country legally to gain citizenship. It is designed solely for the purpose of rewarding the breaking of our immigration laws.

If the Dream Act passed and someone from another country wanted to gain citizenship, this bill would do NOTHING for them. It is expressly for illegal immigrants who are already in this country.

Ah, in that case, the problem that exists is that it's a pain to try to find so many people who don't want to be found.

In this way, they are forced to benefit the country (either through service or through making themselves valuable to the economic structure by getting an education in a field that equips them to work. PLUS, they now get to pay into the tax system, instead of just being a drain on the tax system, as they currently are.

I don't LIKE the Dream Act, but I think it's better than the current program, and more realistic than a "Root 'em out and boot 'em out" system. I don't think we have the manpower or the finances to pay for the manpower for the latter.

Whether we have the resources to find and boot people is irrelevant.

This bill, on its own, is a BAD idea and unfair to those who are trying to legally enter this country.

Even if we do nothing else regarding immigration, passing this bill would be wrong.

If people want to address the immigration problem, let them come up with a better piece of legislation.

Writerbuckeye;601248 wrote:Whether we have the resources to find and boot people is irrelevant.

Unless someone actually champions this option. However, it IS irrelevant if you do not, as I also do not. Since we agree, there is no sense in trying to prove it.

Writerbuckeye;601248 wrote:This bill, on its own, is a BAD idea and unfair to those who are trying to legally enter this country.

As it is giving the shortcut to people who have broken the law? I agree. It sucks. However, I would say that between:

a) An action that is unfair to immigrants intending to pursue citizenship legally, and
b) An action that turns a portion of the illegal population from tax dollar and economic drains on EVERYONE in the country into tax payers and assets in the economic spectrum,

I still have to go with (b).

(B) sucks for the people affected in (a). I know this. It's not fair; you're right. Neither is the current system, though. You, I, and every other tax-paying individual is enabling many of those already in our country illegally to CONTINUE living here illegally. And week-by-week, month-by-month, year-by-year, they continue to be a financial liability to society in this way.

NEITHER way is it fair.

Writerbuckeye;601248 wrote:Even if we do nothing else regarding immigration, passing this bill would be wrong.

Okay, I'm open to hearing an explanation that shows why it is a detriment to the country and/or the rights of already-established citizens.

Writerbuckeye;601248 wrote:If people want to address the immigration problem, let them come up with a better piece of legislation.

Okay, what would YOU propose? People see that there is a problem, and their attempt at curbing it (not fixing it, as that would be a pipe dream) is this. I would suggest that it is better than the alternative. I'm cool with hearing out a disagreement, so long as it is thoughtfully put together. So what do YOU think would be a better solution?

I don't like this legislation because it's unfair to those who are following the rules, and the tens of thousands of LEGAL immigrants who waited patiently before getting citizenship.

I don't see this as an either/or situation. We don't have to pass this just to get a few more taxpayers into the system. Let the LEGAL immigration process do that. If you want to stop the drain on resources by illegals, then stop giving them benefits they aren't entitled to, and kick them out of the country when you find them.

As for what I'd propose, I've already said it: find a better way or do nothing and keep sending illegals home when you find them. I'm not of the school that believes anything is better than nothing. In this case, doing nothing IS better because you aren't rewarding people for having broken the law.

Writerbuckeye;601494 wrote:I don't like this legislation because it's unfair to those who are following the rules, and the tens of thousands of LEGAL immigrants who waited patiently before getting citizenship.

Like I said, I recognize that it isn't fair, but as long as they are PURSUING citizenship, they are yet to become citizens. The current structure is unfair on the backs of actual citizens, and I personally would rather not be held hostage financially until someone ELSE decides I should stop paying for them to exist.

Writerbuckeye;601494 wrote:I don't see this as an either/or situation. We don't have to pass this just to get a few more taxpayers into the system. Let the LEGAL immigration process do that. If you want to stop the drain on resources by illegals, then stop giving them benefits they aren't entitled to, and kick them out of the country when you find them.

You act as though I, myself, have the ability to overtake the talking heads in Washington. If I felt like I could trust THEM to do anything else to lower my taxes, I'd agree with you, but recent bills have made it abundantly clear I can't have that kind of trust in an inept Congress.

Sorry, but while it sucks for the foreigners currently applying to be citizens, they are not yet citizens, and I think government policy should ALWAYS choose fairness for its already-existing constituents before its potential ones.

Writerbuckeye;601494 wrote:As for what I'd propose, I've already said it: find a better way or do nothing and keep sending illegals home when you find them. I'm not of the school that believes anything is better than nothing. In this case, doing nothing IS better because you aren't rewarding people for having broken the law.

"Find a better way ..."

That's what I'm asking of you. Since the current system isn't good enough in your view, what WOULD be?

I've already said I'd rather they do nothing than pass this.

How about we start by shutting down all the entitlements to illegals nationwide. If they can't get food and other services for free, perhaps they'll think twice about staying. This problem really began because we've decided to extend all the benefits of being an American to people who are criminals, instead of holding our ground and saying no.

We need to start reversing the errors we've made, and make this country as unwelcome as possible to those who would choose to come here illegally...and as welcoming as possible for those who follow the rules and go through the process that millions of LEGAL immigrants have had to go through.

Writerbuckeye;602217 wrote:I've already said I'd rather they do nothing than pass this.

How about we start by shutting down all the entitlements to illegals nationwide. If they can't get food and other services for free, perhaps they'll think twice about staying. This problem really began because we've decided to extend all the benefits of being an American to people who are criminals, instead of holding our ground and saying no.

We need to start reversing the errors we've made, and make this country as unwelcome as possible to those who would choose to come here illegally...and as welcoming as possible for those who follow the rules and go through the process that millions of LEGAL immigrants have had to go through.

Good post, WB!

You want to see what liberal politics and immigration policies have wrought? Check out this column about the devastation of the Central Valley in California...

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/255320/two-californias-victor-davis-hanson

Writerbuckeye;602482 wrote:You want to see what liberal politics and immigration policies have wrought? Check out this column about the devastation of the Central Valley in California...

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/255320/two-californias-victor-davis-hanson

I suggest people read this article you linked. Most of it is just the writer's observations, although he does attempt to provide causality a couple times. California...the land of over-regulation and the lawless...coming soon to the rest of us?

Writerbuckeye;602482 wrote:You want to see what liberal politics and immigration policies have wrought? Check out this column about the devastation of the Central Valley in California...

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/255320/two-californias-victor-davis-hanson

One of the best articles I've ever read and it says it perfectly.

I'd love to see one of the liberals on here read this article and still defend the typical liberal view on the illegal immigration issue.

Senate started debate on the Act late last night, and sounds like they will vote to pass the act this morning.
I'm still supporting it, as it only applies to the children of immigrants who were brought here and only know America.

ptown_trojans_1;604973 wrote:Senate started debate on the Act late last night, and sounds like they will vote to pass the act this morning.
I'm still supporting it, as it only applies to the children of immigrants who were brought here and only know America.

What's to stop the adult illegal immigrants from claiming they were dragged here kicking and screaming to the USA by their unlawful parents? In other words....granma and granpa are to blame and it's now all-ye-in-come-free?

And what the hell is the big rush now? These pricks got their ass tarred and feathered at the voting booth 6 weeks ago...they should go quietly into the good night....and good riddance.

Writerbuckeye;595707 wrote:State of mind has NOTHING to do with committing a crime.
If you have no intent to kill a guy but hit him in the mouth, and he falls, hits his head and dies -- you are guilty of manslaughter. Your state of mind doesn't enter into the equation.

I'm kind of shocked none of the Leftys got on you about this. As if our regular laws didn't cover it, they have devised "hate crime" laws. I'm still unconvinced as to how they are necessary, as a crime is a crime is a crime. I agree with you in that state of mind shouldn't come into play, the elitists believe that what thoughts a criminal had in the past are certainly punishable beyond the level of the crime.

It is only applicable to people that are the ages of 12-29 by the time of the law enacted, so it is only a niche sample of the population and does not allow future illegals to bring in their kids. It only applies to illegals children already in the U.S. in or near High School and college.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act

The big rush is they new Congress does not come in until January 5, and the D's were too slow and now want to get their agenda done.
BTW, much was said the same about the 2006 R's, and they had a lame duck that screwed the U.S. with the passage of the U.S.-India nuclear cooperation deal.

ptown_trojans_1;604982 wrote:It is only applicable to people that are the ages of 12-29 by the time of the law enacted, so it is only a niche sample of the population and does not allow future illegals to bring in their kids. It only applies to illegals children already in the U.S. in or near High School and college.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act

Uh-huh. Reminds me of 15 year olds pitching in a 12 year old Little League World Series. These illegals have no paper trail. They have no documentation. They are...by definition....um...uhhh...criminals. Who will be the enforcement agent? Will they check birth certificates? Illegal criminals wouldn't lie, would they? Shocking if they do.

I understand the "why" they're doing it now. I was being sarcastic, especially since this bunch in Congress got repudiated in spades 6 weeks ago and as in their entire 2 year history, they are once again ignoring the will of the people. I guess they are consistent at least.

ptown_trojans_1;604982 wrote:It is only applicable to people that are the ages of 12-29 by the time of the law enacted, so it is only a niche sample of the population and does not allow future illegals to bring in their kids.

It's not like this new attempt by leftists at amnesty in exchange for new Democrat votes will prevent future illegals from bringing in their children or having babies within U.S. borders...ILLEGALLY of course.

The absurdity of making a federal law to give amnesty to those who broke federal law is just another indicator of how twisted our "leaders" in DC have become.

See, I thought that too, but these are kids that were taken across the borders here with their parents. They are now being punished for their parents mistakes. The more I read about the bill, the more it is limited to people that want to be U.S. citizens, join the military academies, go to college, but can't now and can't afford to wait.

Well, the laws of the Senate stopped it from being brought to a vote.
55-41 the measure to bring to a vote fails.

ptown_trojans_1;604996 wrote:See, I thought that too, but these are kids that were taken across the borders here with their parents. They are now being punished for their parents mistakes. The more I read about the bill, the more it is limited to people that want to be U.S. citizens, join the military academies, go to college, but can't now and can't afford to wait.

It may not be the "children's" fault but they are here illegally nonetheless. They should stand in line like every other immigrant who wants legal U.S. citizenship.

THEN we must take proactive steps to curtail illegal immigration and secure our southern border to make that possible. In doing so the issue of illegal Mexican immigration will no longer a fucking issue.

ptown_trojans_1;605020 wrote:Well, the laws of the Senate stopped it from being brought to a vote.
55-41 the measure to bring to a vote fails.

Good. Now let's secure the border.