sherm03;591446 wrote:First of all, I am not the one with a reading comprehension problem. People aren't singling out private schools? Maybe you or sykotyk are not singling out the private schools...but go ahead and re-read some of skank's, thinthick's, and be nice's posts. That's all they are doing is singling out private schools...calling for them to move up or out because they "cheat" and "recruit" and steal the players that belong to the public schools. I'm sorry for the confusion...my post should not have been directed at you, but rather at the people who are completely anti-private schools.

Secondly, it is not doublespeak. Like I have said before, I don't care about a multiplier. I think if you move the schools that are complained about the most up, they will still do well and be perennial playoff teams. My point in bringing up those private schools and saying that it's not fair to move them up is because the people who advocate a multiplier do so under the guise that it is a fair thing to do to level out the playing field. I am merely pointing out that it isn't a fair solution. It's a solution that affects all the private schools. The better schools will continue to do well. The others will continue to do the same. And the only people that would benefit would be D6 public schools. D5 will still have to face DSJ and Newark Catholic who will still be state champion contenders every year; D4 will still have to face Ursuline who will still be state champion contenders; D3 will have to face Alter who will still be state champion contenders; D2 will have to face Mooney who will still be state champion contenders.

I never said I disliked sykotyk's proposal. But let me take it a step further...
Any student coming into a private school from a private feeder school would count as 1. A student coming into a private school from a public grade school would count for 1.5, or 2...or whatever. Likewise, a student going from a public grade school to a public high school would count as 1...and a student coming from a private feeder school to a public high school would count for 1.5, or 2. Why is it OK to count a kid as more than 1 who went to St. Charles grade school in Boardman and then went on to go to Mooney? Why is that student considered property of the Boardman school district just because he lives in Boardman? If you want a fair multiplier, base it on where the kid graduates 8th grade...not where he lives or the population of the city/town.

Will someone who advocates a multiplier please answer the question that when one is enacted, and the best private schools continue to win...what do you propose would be next? Increase the multiplier? I'm interested to see what these people feel should happen 5-10 years down the road when Mooney, Ursuline, DSJ, and Newark Catholic continue to win in their new divisions.

In D-1 and D-2 I don't think a multiplier will make much difference. Maybe establish a super division that any school could move up to if they chose might work. I agree with most of what you are saying. I don't think any school owns any of the students in the district but I also don't see why the public's are the only ones that have to "own" the undesirable students either. A system where the current school districts are established with also private school district zones that are created could be used. Any student in the established zone could attend the "home school" and count as 1. If you are outside of a zone or in a different district, you count as 2. I agree many of the same names will still win, but it will be more competitive and more fair then the current system.

Alma_Parker;591316 wrote:A small sample size won't tell you much. But as for the prior question from sirclovis, I would guess, and it's only a guess, that "trying harder" does correlate considerably to success in athletics and GPA correlates but far less so. (Athletics is often a 'substitute good' for academics in our particular culture, so more success at the former allows a bit less attention to the latter, but i would suspect this effect only partially dampens the generally-positive correlation of GPA to success at a variety of other things. Finally, there is a least a bit of causality here; if you assume GPA is a decent proxy for general intelligence (imperfect) and then assume that general intelligence is helpful at football (at least in a few of the 20 or so roles).

I would concur in general with your guess in regards to 'trying harder'. I however have a dissenting opinion with the generally prevalent inference on this thread that in most cases the public school lack of athletic success is a direct corollary to lack of effort. Also the implication that private school athletic success is derived predominantly from 'trying harder', 'lifting more' and 'praying together' but due in no part to guideline disparity is farcical.

The correlation of GPA (agreed imperfect proxy for intelligence but at least an indicator) to athletic success does apply, in my opinion, but must be in shared supply with athletic ability. The variance from one extreme to the other provides for less success in the opposing realm. Ultimately the best player(not necessarily athlete) is gifted both athletically and intellectually.

.......
......Want to hear about the advantages that the CCL has? I figure that, out of five teams in the conference, two won a state championship this year and one always contends, so....
Bishop Ready - doesn't have their own field, so they play an inordinate number of road games and Saturday games at neutral fields. Usually plays the non-OHSAA Columbus Crusaders as well as at least one non-Ohio opponent every year.
Hartley - Located in one of the most dilapidated and dangerous areas of central Ohio; I never go into that area unarmed. In the middle of an area spanning a few square miles that could be totally razed, which would do much to improve the area.
Watterson - Doesn't have their own field; home games are played at the field of the long-closed Columbus North HS. Draws primarily from wealthier areas, meaning that their competition for kids isn't the other CCL schools, it's the Dublin schools, the Hilliard schools, and Upper Arlington.
DeSales - Located directly across from Brookhaven, and draws from the two poorest feeder schools in the diocese (St. Matthias and St. James the Less).
St. Charles - From an academic standpoint, they try to be closer to Columbus Academy than the other CCL schools. Tuition is staggeringly expensive, and despite this, their football field was actually the outfield of the baseball diamond. It's the only place where winning the coin toss to start was a huge advantage, because rather than taking the wind, you could take the sun and have your opponents blinded by the end of the first quarter.

You also forget a very important advantage that publics have that privates do not. The average public school kid, by the time he hits 9th grade, has been playing football with his new teammates for a number of years. Not only that, they've been playing in the same systems, with the same terminology, and with the same way of doing things. The average private school kid, by the time he hits 9th grade, has to learn entirely new systems and terminology, entirely new ways of playing positions, and also has to set aside the mutual negative feelings that have developed over the previous 8 years for the kids who are now his teammates.[/QUOTE]

............
Want to hear about the advantages that the CCL has? I figure that, out of five teams in the conference, two won a state championship this year and one always contends, so....
Bishop Ready - doesn't have their own field, so they play an inordinate number of road games and Saturday games at neutral fields. Usually plays the non-OHSAA Columbus Crusaders as well as at least one non-Ohio opponent every year.
Hartley - Located in one of the most dilapidated and dangerous areas of central Ohio; I never go into that area unarmed. In the middle of an area spanning a few square miles that could be totally razed, which would do much to improve the area.
Watterson - Doesn't have their own field; home games are played at the field of the long-closed Columbus North HS. Draws primarily from wealthier areas, meaning that their competition for kids isn't the other CCL schools, it's the Dublin schools, the Hilliard schools, and Upper Arlington.
DeSales - Located directly across from Brookhaven, and draws from the two poorest feeder schools in the diocese (St. Matthias and St. James the Less).
St. Charles - From an academic standpoint, they try to be closer to Columbus Academy than the other CCL schools. Tuition is staggeringly expensive, and despite this, their football field was actually the outfield of the baseball diamond. It's the only place where winning the coin toss to start was a huge advantage, because rather than taking the wind, you could take the sun and have your opponents blinded by the end of the first quarter.

You also forget a very important advantage that publics have that privates do not. The average public school kid, by the time he hits 9th grade, has been playing football with his new teammates for a number of years. Not only that, they've been playing in the same systems, with the same terminology, and with the same way of doing things. The average private school kid, by the time he hits 9th grade, has to learn entirely new systems and terminology, entirely new ways of playing positions, and also has to set aside the mutual negative feelings that have developed over the previous 8 years for the kids who are now his teammates.[/QUOTE]

WOW - you do your homework! Yes, you are correct on all counts. My folks still live in Hartley's neighborhood and just recently experienced a home invasion. A couple of years ago, my sister held the hand of a dying woman who was shot in the head by a boyfriend, right there in the middle of the street, and feet from my childhood home. Hartley has somehow managed to rise up from the tragic deterioration around it, and prove to many that perseverance, hard work, and a "never-give-up" attitude CAN make a difference - that's why they are still there. This is what they teach to their students - football players included. Also, I wonder how many non-Catholic kids from that neighborhood have found sanctuary - and a brighter future - inside that school.

NNN;591386 wrote:Funny you mention this. The five states that are generally regarded as the best for high school ball are Ohio, Pennsylvania, California, Texas, and Florida. Ohio has ~720 schools and six champions, Pennsylvania 4 for ~500, California 5 for ~1,000, Florida has 8 for another huge number (I'm still trying to find the exact one), and Texas has 12 for another massive number that I can't find.



....and the freakishly athletic. You make it sound like there's a correlation between classroom conduct or academic excellence and athletic prowess. How many private schools are willing to tolerate criminal behavior outside of the classroom from anyone, and how many are willing to let it slide if the kid happens to play football or basketball? How many tolerate disruptive conduct, academic negligence, and outright stupidity just because a kid can play football? We hear all the time about what a huge disadvantage Notre Dame is at in football because of their academic standards...how many private schools in Ohio REALLY are willing to risk their reputation to win a few games?



Key word: students. You've provided the parameters for having a good student body that gets academic scholarships, which has nothing to do with whether they can play football. Private schools have plenty of academic achievers who couldn't run without tripping over their own feet, and public schools has plenty of would-be dropouts who could be All-Ohio without being able to pass a private school's remedial English class. I'm of the opinion that there's no way to actually account for these differences.



And public schools have plenty of boneheads. I mentioned Andy Katzenmoyer. Remember a guy named Chuck Jones? He was a defensive tackle at Chillicothe...all-conference, All-Ohio, All-American, All-Time All-Ohio. I knew one of his old teachers fairly well, and the Chuck Jones stories he had were both funny and sad. His pathetic academic performance and effort sure never caused him to miss a game, and it never caused a college team to back off of recruiting him.



Want to hear about the advantages that the CCL has? I figure that, out of five teams in the conference, two won a state championship this year and one always contends, so....
Bishop Ready - doesn't have their own field, so they play an inordinate number of road games and Saturday games at neutral fields. Usually plays the non-OHSAA Columbus Crusaders as well as at least one non-Ohio opponent every year.
Hartley - Located in one of the most dilapidated and dangerous areas of central Ohio; I never go into that area unarmed. In the middle of an area spanning a few square miles that could be totally razed, which would do much to improve the area.
Watterson - Doesn't have their own field; home games are played at the field of the long-closed Columbus North HS. Draws primarily from wealthier areas, meaning that their competition for kids isn't the other CCL schools, it's the Dublin schools, the Hilliard schools, and Upper Arlington.
DeSales - Located directly across from Brookhaven, and draws from the two poorest feeder schools in the diocese (St. Matthias and St. James the Less).
St. Charles - From an academic standpoint, they try to be closer to Columbus Academy than the other CCL schools. Tuition is staggeringly expensive, and despite this, their football field was actually the outfield of the baseball diamond. It's the only place where winning the coin toss to start was a huge advantage, because rather than taking the wind, you could take the sun and have your opponents blinded by the end of the first quarter.

You also forget a very important advantage that publics have that privates do not. The average public school kid, by the time he hits 9th grade, has been playing football with his new teammates for a number of years. Not only that, they've been playing in the same systems, with the same terminology, and with the same way of doing things. The average private school kid, by the time he hits 9th grade, has to learn entirely new systems and terminology, entirely new ways of playing positions, and also has to set aside the mutual negative feelings that have developed over the previous 8 years for the kids who are now his teammates.

WOW - you do your homework! Yes, you are correct on all counts. My folks still live in Hartley's neighborhood and just recently experienced a home invasion. A couple of years ago, my sister held the hand of a dying woman who was shot in the head by a boyfriend, right there in the middle of the street, and feet from my childhood home. Hartley has somehow managed to rise up from the tragic deterioration around it, and prove to many that perseverance, hard work, and a "never-give-up" attitude CAN make a difference - that's why they are still there. This is what they teach to their students - football players included. Also, I wonder how many non-Catholic kids from that neighborhood have found sanctuary - and a brighter future - inside that school.

etak;591500 wrote:WOW - you do your homework! Yes, you are correct on all counts. My folks still live in Hartley's neighborhood and just recently experienced a home invasion. A couple of years ago, my sister held the hand of a dying woman who was shot in the head by a boyfriend, right there in the middle of the street, and feet from my childhood home. Hartley has somehow managed to rise up from the tragic deterioration around it, and prove to many that perseverance, hard work, and a "never-give-up" attitude CAN make a difference - that's why they are still there. This is what they teach to their students - football players included. Also, I wonder how many non-Catholic kids from that neighborhood have found sanctuary - and a brighter future - inside that school.

Exactly. Hartley's draw is Reynoldsburg, Pickerington, and the East Side of Columbus. I'd say that Gahanna is a solid split between DeSales, St. Charles, and Hartley. Local kids who don't go to Hartley are at risk of ending up in Walnut Ridge, Eastmoor, Whitehall, or perhaps Mifflin. None of those is a desirable option from an academic standpoint or simply from a safety standpoint.

If I remember correctly, both Hartley and St. Charles (also located in an area that's not too desirable on three sides) have sections of the dress code that jackets bearing the logo of a college or pro sports team are not allowed. That goes back to the early 1990s, when kids were being robbed for their Starter jackets....that says a lot about the area right there.

Bigdogg;591439 wrote:It always makes me smile when people bring out the grammar police. Is that your rebuttal? How sad. The queens English and typing were never my strong suits, yet I am doing well for myself. you want me to have my secretary type out my thoughts?

Hey, I don't care, as long as you make it clear what you're trying to communicate is fairly clear. I'd say you pass that test, even if I can't say it about "Be Nice." It's more the irony that you start what you call the "policing" by chiding sherm and, as you do it, you lapse into a spate of greengrocer's plurals and so forth. It's just funny. And there's nothing sad about noticing when somebody does something funny but doesn't realize it himself. You jumped into that category accidentally; chill out. And while you chill, please don't start with the paycheck-bet crap. All the "maybe I should get my fourth-line-down reportees to have their chief-of-staffs' assistants' secretaries call you" crap. It's like Be Nice bragging about his hot dog stand. I won't go there as tempting it might be. Let's keep this on football. When I tried to do that with skank last night after he insulted my favorite public program (at mighty Massillon's expense), he just got like all quiet.... certainly you can do better.

^^^LOL I'm still under your skin and I absolutely LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!

Alma_Parker;590763 wrote:On juice boxes, we've probably all cringed to see our kids get trophies for not-actually-winning, which, unfortunately, has been increasingly fashionable. This is what your approach reminds some of us of, lots more state champions so that even lots of teams who can't win in open competition can still take home awards.

Now on the the more serious topic, do you really want to make some kind of comparision of Massillon to Ironton in terms of program quality? How would we do that? At risk of really setting off your fact-aversion, let me try a few ideas on how we might conduct such an exercise. Please surprise everybody and answer some of these thoughts; I'll be careful to use only facts. You can call me mean or compare me to Barney Fife or the Tin Man, but please go out on a limb and try to supply a fact or two if you really have a refutation. And really focus here and remember, we are comparing two public schools!!!

1. Ironton has about 42 playoff wins, Massillon has fewer than 30.

2. Ironton, outpointed Massillon in the computer rankings this year, 26.7 to 24.9, even though Massillon is D-I and Ironton is D-IV.

you might wonder if maybe, Massillon is a small D-I and Ironton is a big D-IV, so maybe that is slightly less shocking, but nope, OHSAA says I has 182 boys to M's 553!!

3. Despite this absolute size advantage of more than 3:1, Ironton actually outpoints Massillon consistently, 24.9 to 21.8 averaged over the past decade (2001-2010)

4. Taken together, this means that, on average, Massillon needs more than 25 boys enrolled for each computer point, while Ironton needs a little more than 7.

you might now be thinking 'but what about those years when Massillon is really good?

5. If you take Massillon's best season in the last decade, 2001, they did rack of an impressive 31.8 points, among the highest in the state. But, shucks, Ironton had 35.6 in the same year, which would have put them in the top 3-4 teams in all D-I regions and ahead of all D-II, D-III, and D-IV teams.

Any ideas now on how hard Massillon's schedule is? And I don't brag on Ironton because they are the only public who can and does compete well, over and over and over. Versailles and Mogadore and Steubenville and Kenton and others have similar records. We've said it 100 different ways: it's about great programs, not public or private or north or south or rural or urban or rich or poor. You challenged me directly on the one program I know well as to whether they can compete against a decent schedule. Of course, it's a little unfair for an admitted D-I bigot to pick on a lowly D-IV guy, a poor southern one at that. But you did. And turns out, as usual you aimed your gun before you loaded it with any facts. Even if you didn't have to play any catholic programs or any D-I or D-II schools you'd probably have that state title elude you, just as it has since they quit doing it by having a vote of northern editors instead of playing the games. Even if this makes you a little crazy, you should try to find a way to put the energy into winning and not whining, and it can all turn around.

Got any facts?

Mrs. Parker, maybe this is why.

Massillons opponents that made the playoffs.
2000
Massillon Perry/state semi finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg. semi finalist
St. Edward/reg. qt. finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. finals
Buchtel/state semi finalist

2001
Mckinley/reg semi finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg qt finalist
St. Ignatius/State Champion
Day Cham-Jul./reg qt finalist

2002
Warren Harding/State Runners Up
St. Ignatius/reg. qt finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg. qt finalist

2003
St. Edward/State Runner Up
Warren Harding/reg. semi finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. semi finalist
Benedictine/State Champion
Day. Cham. Jul./reg. qt finalist

2004
Warren Harding/reg. qt finalist
St. Edward/reg. semi finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. finalist
McKinley/State Runners Up
Benedictine/State Champion
Buchtel/reg. qt finalist

2005
Mckinley/reg finalist
St. Ignatius/reg qt finalist
Dover/reg qt finalist

2006
Mckinley/state semi finalist
Mentor/State Runners Up
St. Ignatius/
Warren Harding/
Cin. Moeller/
Hamilton Az./State Champion

2007
Mentor/State Runners Up
Solon/
St. Ignatius/
Parma Normandy/reg finalist
Ygst. Ursuline/State Runners Up

2008
Mckinley/reg qt finalist
St. Ignatius/State Champion
Mentor/reg semi finalist
Ygst. Ursuline/State Champion

2009
Mckinley/reg finalist
St. Ignatius/reg semi finalist
Canton GlenOak/reg semi finalist
Steubenville/state semi finalist

2010
Buchtel/State Runners Up
Mentor/
Steubenville/
Warren Harding/
Mckinley/

This is a who's who of Ohio HS football. We have backed down from no one, we have played schools that recruit, (your Ursulines, Ignatius' St. Edward's, Moellers), We have played traditional powers, (Mckinley, Warren, Steubenville). Schools that only call when they have their, 'team of a lifetime', (Perry, Dover, Normandy), Your schools that recruit AND only call when they have their, 'team of a lifetime', (Chaminade, Benedictine), Schools that are VERY competative year in and year out, (Mentor, Solon, Buchtel.) Teams that have been Nationally ranked when we played them. Nice try though....Keep playin small ball.

skank;591711 wrote:Mrs. Parker, maybe this is why.

Massillons opponents that made the playoffs.
2000
Massillon Perry/state semi finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg. semi finalist
St. Edward/reg. qt. finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. finals
Buchtel/state semi finalist

2001
Mckinley/reg semi finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg qt finalist
St. Ignatius/State Champion
Day Cham-Jul./reg qt finalist

2002
Warren Harding/State Runners Up
St. Ignatius/reg. qt finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg. qt finalist

2003
St. Edward/State Runner Up
Warren Harding/reg. semi finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. semi finalist
Benedictine/State Champion
Day. Cham. Jul./reg. qt finalist

2004
Warren Harding/reg. qt finalist
St. Edward/reg. semi finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. finalist
McKinley/State Runners Up
Benedictine/State Champion
Buchtel/reg. qt finalist

2005
Mckinley/reg finalist
St. Ignatius/reg qt finalist
Dover/reg qt finalist

2006
Mckinley/state semi finalist
Mentor/State Runners Up
St. Ignatius/
Warren Harding/
Cin. Moeller/
Hamilton Az./State Champion

2007
Mentor/State Runners Up
Solon/
St. Ignatius/
Parma Normandy/reg finalist
Ygst. Ursuline/State Runners Up

2008
Mckinley/reg qt finalist
St. Ignatius/State Champion
Mentor/reg semi finalist
Ygst. Ursuline/State Champion

2009
Mckinley/reg finalist
St. Ignatius/reg semi finalist
Canton GlenOak/reg semi finalist
Steubenville/state semi finalist

2010
Buchtel/State Runners Up
Mentor/
Steubenville/
Warren Harding/
Mckinley/

This is a who's who of Ohio HS football. We have backed down from no one, we have played schools that recruit, (your Ursulines, Ignatius' St. Edward's, Moellers), We have played traditional powers, (Mckinley, Warren, Steubenville). Schools that only call when they have their, 'team of a lifetime', (Perry, Dover, Normandy), Your schools that recruit AND only call when they have their, 'team of a lifetime', (Chaminade, Benedictine), Schools that are VERY competative year in and year out, (Mentor, Solon, Buchtel.) Teams that have been Nationally ranked when we played them. Nice try though....Keep playin small ball.

If those schools are all recruiting, what would you say about a school that has brought in a QB from Oregon?

Al Bundy;591770 wrote:If those schools are all recruiting, what would you say about a school that has brought in a QB from Oregon?

Who, "brought in" a QB from Oregon? Something original next time please?

Not really my place because their are many here that know more about them than I but ... if someone truly believes Massillon is not a very good football program and one of the best in the state then they know very little about Ohio HS football. :shrugs:

skank;591772 wrote:Who, "brought in" a QB from Oregon? Something original next time please?

I believe your team's QB was brought in from Oregon. Is it better to get make up things like you do instead of listing specific examples? I am a public school guy, but I don't see how you think it is OK to bring a QB from another state then you criticize schools who you think are bringing in players.

Interesting...I thought the kids DAD was transferred by his EMPLOYER.. ::shrugs::

I don't know what you're talking about, qb from Oregon....Brought in?

1_beast;591807 wrote:Interesting...I thought the kids DAD was transferred by his EMPLOYER.. ::shrugs::

Oh yeah, now that someone puts it like that, I know who you mean....Yeah.

skank;591772 wrote:Who, "brought in" a QB from Oregon? Something original next time please?

Yeah...you're the friggin' Lord of Originality. :rolleyes:

ttt

skank;591711 wrote:Mrs. Parker, maybe this is why.

Massillons opponents that made the playoffs.
2000
Massillon Perry/state semi finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg. semi finalist
St. Edward/reg. qt. finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. finals
Buchtel/state semi finalist

2001
Mckinley/reg semi finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg qt finalist
St. Ignatius/State Champion
Day Cham-Jul./reg qt finalist

2002
Warren Harding/State Runners Up
St. Ignatius/reg. qt finalist
Mansfield Sr./reg. qt finalist

2003
St. Edward/State Runner Up
Warren Harding/reg. semi finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. semi finalist
Benedictine/State Champion
Day. Cham. Jul./reg. qt finalist

2004
Warren Harding/reg. qt finalist
St. Edward/reg. semi finalist
St. Ignatius/reg. finalist
McKinley/State Runners Up
Benedictine/State Champion
Buchtel/reg. qt finalist

2005
Mckinley/reg finalist
St. Ignatius/reg qt finalist
Dover/reg qt finalist

2006
Mckinley/state semi finalist
Mentor/State Runners Up
St. Ignatius/
Warren Harding/
Cin. Moeller/
Hamilton Az./State Champion

2007
Mentor/State Runners Up
Solon/
St. Ignatius/
Parma Normandy/reg finalist
Ygst. Ursuline/State Runners Up

2008
Mckinley/reg qt finalist
St. Ignatius/State Champion
Mentor/reg semi finalist
Ygst. Ursuline/State Champion

2009
Mckinley/reg finalist
St. Ignatius/reg semi finalist
Canton GlenOak/reg semi finalist
Steubenville/state semi finalist

2010
Buchtel/State Runners Up
Mentor/
Steubenville/
Warren Harding/
Mckinley/

This is a who's who of Ohio HS football. We have backed down from no one, we have played schools that recruit, (your Ursulines, Ignatius' St. Edward's, Moellers), We have played traditional powers, (Mckinley, Warren, Steubenville). Schools that only call when they have their, 'team of a lifetime', (Perry, Dover, Normandy), Your schools that recruit AND only call when they have their, 'team of a lifetime', (Chaminade, Benedictine), Schools that are VERY competative year in and year out, (Mentor, Solon, Buchtel.) Teams that have been Nationally ranked when we played them. Nice try though....Keep playin small ball.

And winning state titles this century.

1_beast;591807 wrote:Interesting...I thought the kids DAD was transferred by his EMPLOYER.. ::shrugs::

So if you give the dad a job it OK bring kids in using that method? I'm sure no families in Ohio could have used the job since the economy is so great here.

Viking;591115 wrote:A complicated system that includes free/reduced lunch population, open enrollment, and winning tradition will all be factors in the new alignment. The changes will be made this summer. My guess is that Mooney will be D II and Ursuline will be D IV. I could see Mooney staying in D III and Ursuline joining them there.

I heard the meeting was delayed while a judge rules on a motion from Massillon Washington to redistribute the National Merit Scholarships won by Shaker Heights and Columbus Academny and Cincy Xavier. Apparently "cheating" was involved.

tsst_fballfan;591485 wrote:I would concur in general with your guess in regards to 'trying harder'. I however have a dissenting opinion with the generally prevalent inference on this thread that in most cases the public school lack of athletic success is a direct corollary to lack of effort. Also the implication that private school athletic success is derived predominantly from 'trying harder', 'lifting more' and 'praying together' but due in no part to guideline disparity is farcical.

The correlation of GPA (agreed imperfect proxy for intelligence but at least an indicator) to athletic success does apply, in my opinion, but must be in shared supply with athletic ability. The variance from one extreme to the other provides for less success in the opposing realm. Ultimately the best player(not necessarily athlete) is gifted both athletically and intellectually.

All this seems reasonable enough to me; it is refreshing to have skank and nice and thinthick pondering their next unsubstantiated salvo while a reasonable and reasoned debate goes on. For the record, as would be evidenced by several of my prior (especially earlier) posts, from just after I wandered in here accidentally trying to find out what anybody thought about Hartley's chances, I don't have any glib view of "trying harder." My notion of what makes a program successful is that it requires a many-year steady accretion outward from a special coach through a staff to parents and the community and, of course, the players. Many of the best programs, the perennial appearers in the playoffs, the ones who show up too often to be doing it because of steady talent flow, shares some traits, broadly. They have touch coaches who throw bad apples off the team, with support of the community. They run a fairly consistent system, often in a fashion that lets the kids start early. (As has been pointed out, this may be an edge for publics - - in Ironton everybody starts running the offense in 7th grade if they don't learn it from a brother or uncle or father before they turn 10.) And so on. It takes a lot to build a program. And it takes support from the broad community. And to restate a major meme I've tried to transmit here: whining on the part of the community, excuse-making and victim-mentality-formatoin CANNOT help. if kids think they are going to "get cheated" again, they won't win. Self-fulfilling prophecy. When Ironton faced the undefeated and #1 ranked and considered-invincible almighty Mooney a few years ago they didn't go up there wondering if a poor southern public school had a chance, but rather with 25 years of momentum that said if they played well they had a shot, just as they had when the beat St. V-M and DeSales and Orrville and others. If skank is representative of Massillon Washington fans, it's no wonder they've had a hard time since Ohio switched over from polls to playoffs.

Be Nice;591634 wrote:^^^LOL I'm still under your skin and I absolutely LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!

Excellent!! It's important for everybody to have something to hang on to and feel good about. Sometimes kids act out just to get attention; I figured you couldn't actually mean most of the stuff you were saying or take yourself seriously. If you get some free time maybe you can help skank figure out how to explain why Massillon is screwed by the priivates but Ironton and Kenton aren't; he's gone quiet too so maybe you can team up. Meanwhile, good to know you are happy basking in the redoubt. Stay quiet and keep reading; this thread is making a lot more progress with the exchange of facts and balanced viewpoints; you may well learn a lot and maybe something can penetrate your absolutism and convince you that banishing the evil privates wouldn't work out.

^^^Again, I am so under your skin you can't stand it. I LOVE IT! Mentioning me in all your threads is a hoot. Mancrush??? lol lol lol lol Dude, seriously I'm married.

Be Nice;592038 wrote:^^^Again, I am so under your skin you can't stand it. I LOVE IT! Mentioning me in all your threads is a hoot. Mancrush??? lol lol lol lol Dude, seriously I'm married.

One "lol" is all you need. Putting more than one does not make your joke funnier...

^sherm...couldn't you do any better than that? lol lol lol lol