hoops23;557513 wrote:Yes, Jim Heacocks defense is SPECTACULAR against the Indianas, Ohio's, and Minnesota's of the world.

Now, give me the stats against top 5-10 teams? You know, like the 35-3 beating we took to USC. Or the 18-13 loss to USC in which our defense gave up the winning TD.. Or the Wisky game, in which Wisky did WHATEVER they wanted... Not to mention other big games like LSU and Florida.

Shit, we gave up 20 to EMU this season... Good thing we scored 73 to make it look bad.

All good points and precisely why Ohio State is still overrated. The Buckeyes arguably won their best game of the season against Penn State, but that first half performance doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings about Ohio State's chances as they travel to Iowa.

Should Ohio State beat Iowa? Absolutely. Will they? Depends on which Ohio State persona shows up. If they look like the inept and ineffectual group that fell behind 14-3 by halftime in front of 105,000 friendly faces in the Shoe and then do that at Iowa....forget it.

Ohio State really hasn't put together a solid and consistent performance across 4 quarters yet this season....and there are only 2 games left.

hoops23;557513 wrote:Yes, Jim Heacocks defense is SPECTACULAR against the Indianas, Ohio's, and Minnesota's of the world.

Now, give me the stats against top 5-10 teams? You know, like the 35-3 beating we took to USC. Or the 18-13 loss to USC in which our defense gave up the winning TD.. Or the Wisky game, in which Wisky did WHATEVER they wanted... Not to mention other big games like LSU and Florida.

Shit, we gave up 20 to EMU this season... Good thing we scored 73 to make it look bad.

No, this is now your responsibility. I have given facts to support my side of the argument. It is now your responsibility to give data to support our side of the argument, it's not up to me to argue your point.

Right now I have given facts to support my argument. You have provided anecdotal evidence and very little actual fact. The fact remains that my argument is supported by fact while yours is still just your own perception. If this were a formal argument you'd be getting laughed out of the court or debate room. In fact, even in this informal argument, you're still getting owned because you haven't provided any real support for your side of the argument and you expect the defense to provide your support for you.

Props to Jimmy T for "coaching the team up" and his half time adjustments. I wasn't that worried going into the break.....I would have been freaking if we came out with the same shit play on both sides of the ball.

Automatik;557631 wrote:Props to Jimmy T for "coaching the team up" and his half time adjustments. I wasn't that worried going into the break.....I would have been freaking if we came out with the same shit play on both sides of the ball.

I wasn't worried after we got the 4th and 1 stop. But I would have been worried had it been 21-3 or 17-3. JoePa made big screw up there going for it. The first half was a carbon copy of Wisky. It was good to see adjustments made at half, especially on defense. OSU as completely flat that first half. Not sure what it is, but Tress teams after a bye week have not been good. I beleive he has a losing record after a bye week.

believer;557557 wrote:All good points and precisely why Ohio State is still overrated. The Buckeyes arguably won their best game of the season against Penn State, but that first half performance doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings about Ohio State's chances as they travel to Iowa.

Should Ohio State beat Iowa? Absolutely. Will they? Depends on which Ohio State persona shows up. If they look like the inept and ineffectual group that fell behind 14-3 by halftime in front of 105,000 friendly faces in the Shoe and then do that at Iowa....forget it.

Ohio State really hasn't put together a solid and consistent performance across 4 quarters yet this season....and there are only 2 games left.

Tell me how OSU is so overrated at #9 in the country? Exactly who is better that is ranked below them? IS Oregon overrated by getting LUCKY beating a crappy Cal team who missed a chip shot FG to win? IS Auburn overrated? Shit, they just gave up 31 freaking points to a 5 loss Georgia team. TCU beat SD St by 5pts, giving up 35 !! Are they all overrated as well? Please tell me who exactly isn't overrated? lol So tired of hearing this or that team is overrated. What team has played a perfect game? Its actually fairly rare to see a team play 4 qtrs of perfect football. Give the other team some credit at times. PSU was on a roll coming in and had a good game plan coming in. OSU woke up and did what they needed to do. 38-14?? 35 second half pts? Not good enough for you huh? Please.

centralbucksfan;557756 wrote:Tell me how OSU is so overrated at #9 in the country? Exactly who is better that is ranked below them? IS Oregon overrated by getting LUCKY beating a crappy Cal team who missed a chip shot FG to win? IS Auburn overrated? Shit, they just gave up 31 freaking points to a 5 loss Georgia team. TCU beat SD St by 5pts, giving up 35 !! Are they all overrated as well? Please tell me who exactly isn't overrated? lol So tired of hearing this or that team is overrated. What team has played a perfect game? Its actually fairly rare to see a team play 4 qtrs of perfect football. Give the other team some credit at times. PSU was on a roll coming in and had a good game plan coming in. OSU woke up and did what they needed to do. 38-14?? 35 second half pts? Not good enough for you huh? Please.

I completely agree. There is no team that is clearly the best this season. The only team that has got it done on a regular basis is Boise

ccrunner609;556508 wrote:20 yards screens, 9 yard rushes..........OSU is gonna lose. Mark it down. THey are getting beat 30-17 tonight

Marked it down.....what was the actual result?

LJ;556727 wrote:Who the hell are Mike, Sam and Will and why do you keep talking about them?!?!?!

LOL, although many weren't bright enough to notice your sarcasm, I did.

krambman;557286 wrote:You're an educator? This is the reason so many students coming out of our public schools today don't stack up against students from other countries.

Not really an educator. P.E. teachers are glorified recess babysitters.

LJ;557291 wrote:Pryor could throw for 500 yards and 6 tds per game and you would still say he sucks

While I don't think Pryor sucks, I don't believe he'll ever be a NFL QB or a QB that leads OSU to a national title game. He is too far behind in the mental aspect of the game. Is athletic gifts have kept him in games, but his decision making is still pretty bad IMO.

dwccrew;558074 wrote: While I don't think Pryor sucks, I don't believe he'll ever be a NFL QB or a QB that leads OSU to a national title game. He is too far behind in the mental aspect of the game. Is athletic gifts have kept him in games, but his decision making is still pretty bad IMO.

He has shown that his decision making isn't that bad. His RUNNING has kept him in games, but his arm strength gives him problems. He can't control his passes, and THAT is his biggest issue.

LJ;558260 wrote:He has shown that his decision making isn't that bad. His RUNNING has kept him in games, but his arm strength gives him problems. He can't control his passes, and THAT is his biggest issue.

I'd agree with this. ALthough he does make one or two poor decisions a game. Luckily, it hasn't cost OSU to this point. His biggest issue IMO, is still his touch on short passes. IE: the pass to Saine in the flat..he just didn't step into it and kinda flicked it out there. Thus it was underthrown and Saine had to wait and go down low to get it, allowing the defense to recover.
BUT come on...do some of you watch that much college football? Not sure there is a QB out there who doesn't throw one or two poor passes a game. I think some of you are holding Pryor to such a high standard that unless he is near perfect, its not good enough. He has improved tremendously. Does he have a ways to go yet? Absolutely. But shit, he is like 29-4 or something close as a starter. Not too shabby. Isn't it all about winning?

Yeah, every QB makes a couple bad throws, and winning is what it's all about. To me, one of his draw backs this season has been hanging in the pocket TOO long and trying to make a throw when he could easily scoot for the first with his feet...he wants to be a QB first and not a run first guy, sometimes to the teams detriment imo.

Though, it's not a big issue to me, just something I've noticed.

centralbucksfan;558291 wrote:I'd agree with this. ALthough he does make one or two poor decisions a game. Luckily, it hasn't cost OSU to this point. His biggest issue IMO, is still his touch on short passes. IE: the pass to Saine in the flat..he just didn't step into it and kinda flicked it out there. Thus it was underthrown and Saine had to wait and go down low to get it, allowing the defense to recover.
BUT come on...do some of you watch that much college football? Not sure there is a QB out there who doesn't throw one or two poor passes a game. I think some of you are holding Pryor to such a high standard that unless he is near perfect, its not good enough. He has improved tremendously. Does he have a ways to go yet? Absolutely. But shit, he is like 29-4 or something close as a starter. Not too shabby. Isn't it all about winning?

His 4 worst passer ratings would put him middle of the pack or "average" in D1 football with a 132

ytownfootball;558296 wrote:Yeah, every QB makes a couple bad throws, and winning is what it's all about. To me, one of his draw backs this season has been hanging in the pocket TOO long and trying to make a throw when he could easily scoot for the first with his feet...he wants to be a QB first and not a run first guy, sometimes to the teams detriment imo.

I will agree with this. Which is why I said that when Pryor goes out and just plays his game, he is a really good QB, when he (or the coaches) make him stay in the pocket and put the game on his passing, that is when he begins to fail. That has been one of my biggest issues with how they have handled Pryor.

LJ;558299 wrote:I will agree with this. Which is why I said that when Pryor goes out and just plays his game, he is a really good QB, when he (or the coaches) make him stay in the pocket and put the game on his passing, that is when he begins to fail. That has been one of my biggest issues with how they have handled Pryor.

See, I'm just not certain if this thing is something the coaching staff has directed him in doing or he's done on his own. His main reason for coming to OSU over others (UM particularly) was he wanted to improve as a pocket presence...obviously not happening in RR's system. I agree though, just play your game and his success increases a bunch, even though he may not personally feel he's improving by running the ball.

ytownfootball;558304 wrote:See, I'm just not certain if this thing is something the coaching staff has directed him in doing or he's done on his own. His main reason for coming to OSU over others (UM particularly) was he wanted to improve as a pocket presence...obviously not happening in RR's system. I agree though, just play your game and his success increases a bunch, even though he may not personally feel he's improving by running the ball.

exactly, you can tell when he goes out and just takes what the D gives him, he completes passes and moves the offense. When he goes out and tries to just sit in the pocket and make things happen in the passing game, that is when he makes people like Cleveland Buck look like a genius. I think he has the skills and knows what he is doing, he just needs to stop forcing himself to be a pocket passer and just play football.

As far as making "bad decisions", i.e. throwing into coverage, he has definitely improved. My problem with his mental game is the inability to find open receivers and anticipate receivers that are coming open, and as a result holding the ball way too long. The play last night where they showed Sanzenbacher coming open over the middle and he dumped it out in the flat was just one example. It doesn't hurt his stats, because he often dumps it off or pulls it down and runs, but it is the reason that we can't move the ball through the air against good defenses. Dump offs in the flat go for very little yardage against good defense. He's not quick enough to recognize who is open or going to be open.

Cleveland Buck;558308 wrote:As far as making "bad decisions", i.e. throwing into coverage, he has definitely improved. My problem with his mental game is the inability to find open receivers and anticipate receivers that are coming open, and as a result holding the ball way too long. The play last night where they showed Sanzenbacher coming open over the middle and he dumped it out in the flat was just one example. It doesn't hurt his stats, because he often dumps it off or pulls it down and runs, but it is the reason that we can't move the ball through the air against good defenses. Dump offs in the flat go for very little yardage against good defense. He's not quick enough to recognize who is open or going to be open.

I do recall that play. Yes, it was frustrating. But its easy for use watching TV to see that develop. We don't know what progression Sanzenbacher was. On top of that, lets not forget about protection as well. The Oline hasn't exacty been great on each and every pass. It seems like there is at least one lineman breaking down and someone pressuring Pryor. So its not all on him. But yes, he does tend to hold the ball too long at times, no question.

Cleveland Buck;558308 wrote:As far as making "bad decisions", i.e. throwing into coverage, he has definitely improved. My problem with his mental game is the inability to find open receivers and anticipate receivers that are coming open, and as a result holding the ball way too long. The play last night where they showed Sanzenbacher coming open over the middle and he dumped it out in the flat was just one example. It doesn't hurt his stats, because he often dumps it off or pulls it down and runs, but it is the reason that we can't move the ball through the air against good defenses. Dump offs in the flat go for very little yardage against good defense. He's not quick enough to recognize who is open or going to be open.

I think that is a product of his pass protection.

http://www.theozone.net/flash/10-11/10-11-13/10-11-13-Pryor.html

Talks about that play specifically...not sure what to take from it, well, other than he held on too long. Lol

hoops23;557513 wrote:Yes, Jim Heacocks defense is SPECTACULAR against the Indianas, Ohio's, and Minnesota's of the world.

Now, give me the stats against top 5-10 teams? You know, like the 35-3 beating we took to USC. Or the 18-13 loss to USC in which our defense gave up the winning TD.. Or the Wisky game, in which Wisky did WHATEVER they wanted... Not to mention other big games like LSU and Florida.

Shit, we gave up 20 to EMU this season... Good thing we scored 73 to make it look bad.

krambman;557584 wrote:No, this is now your responsibility. I have given facts to support my side of the argument. It is now your responsibility to give data to support our side of the argument, it's not up to me to argue your point.

Right now I have given facts to support my argument. You have provided anecdotal evidence and very little actual fact. The fact remains that my argument is supported by fact while yours is still just your own perception. If this were a formal argument you'd be getting laughed out of the court or debate room. In fact, even in this informal argument, you're still getting owned because you haven't provided any real support for your side of the argument and you expect the defense to provide your support for you.

So I said that it was your responsibility to look up our defensive statistics against ranked teams to argue your point, but as I looked I discovered that it actually helps to argue my point. Below I have listed all 30 games OSU has played against teams that were either ranked when we played them or at the end of the season since Heacock became defensive coordinator. You will see the result of the game, the team's AP rank at the time of the game, their AP rank at the end of the season, what they scored against us (the number in parentheses is the offensive points score, because the defense doesn't give up safeties, defensive scores, or special teams scores), what their average points per game was that season, and whether their score against us as their lowest or second lowest of the season.

Here are the results.



Overall Ohio State has a 20-10 record against teams ranked at game time or by season's end.

In 26 of those games OSU held their opponents to less than their season average, and in only four of those games did teams score more than their season average against us. Three of those thirty games the score was within one point of the team's season average. Fifteen of those 30 games were against teams in the top 10 at game time or by season's end and OSU held 12 of those under their season average and only 3 scored higher than their average.

Ohio State held 10 of those 30 opponents to their lowest point total of the season and another seven to their second lowest scoring output of the year.

On average Ohio State held its opponents 12.6 points under their season average.


I would say that overall OSU's defense has been pretty stout against ranked teams, and just as good against top 10 teams. Again, I'm not saying that the defense has been prefect the past six year, but no team is and if your expectation is for perfection then you will always be disappointed by whatever team you choose to put your loyalty behind. So, while the defense may not be perfect and while they may have a poor performance on occasion, those performances are few and far between. Overall the statistics prove that OSU has had one of the best and probably most consistent defenses in the country over the past six year, and these six may be some of the best six in OSU history. You're perception may be that the OSU defense hasn't been any good since Heacock took over, but the actual facts speak differently. So I repeat my earlier question . . .

It sucks when the facts completely ruin your perception of reality, doesn't it?

LJ;557356 wrote:he's 2-2 when in comes to good performances against good teams in 2010

He played well againist Wisconsin?

krambman;561947 wrote:So I said that it was your responsibility to look up our defensive statistics against ranked teams to argue your point, but as I looked I discovered that it actually helps to argue my point. Below I have listed all 30 games OSU has played against teams that were either ranked when we played them or at the end of the season since Heacock became defensive coordinator. You will see the result of the game, the team's AP rank at the time of the game, their AP rank at the end of the season, what they scored against us (the number in parentheses is the offensive points score, because the defense doesn't give up safeties, defensive scores, or special teams scores), what their average points per game was that season, and whether their score against us as their lowest or second lowest of the season.

Here are the results.



Overall Ohio State has a 20-10 record against teams ranked at game time or by season's end.

In 26 of those games OSU held their opponents to less than their season average, and in only four of those games did teams score more than their season average against us. Three of those thirty games the score was within one point of the team's season average. Fifteen of those 30 games were against teams in the top 10 at game time or by season's end and OSU held 12 of those under their season average and only 3 scored higher than their average.

Ohio State held 10 of those 30 opponents to their lowest point total of the season and another seven to their second lowest scoring output of the year.

On average Ohio State held its opponents 12.6 points under their season average.


I would say that overall OSU's defense has been pretty stout against ranked teams, and just as good against top 10 teams. Again, I'm not saying that the defense has been prefect the past six year, but no team is and if your expectation is for perfection then you will always be disappointed by whatever team you choose to put your loyalty behind. So, while the defense may not be perfect and while they may have a poor performance on occasion, those performances are few and far between. Overall the statistics prove that OSU has had one of the best and probably most consistent defenses in the country over the past six year, and these six may be some of the best six in OSU history. You're perception may be that the OSU defense hasn't been any good since Heacock took over, but the actual facts speak differently. So I repeat my earlier question . . .

It sucks when the facts completely ruin your perception of reality, doesn't it?

LOL yes!

I see some big numbers in some big games, don't you?

Also, OF COURSE OSU is going to hold several teams BELOW their regular season average. Ohio State is a top program with great athletes on defense. For instance, Texas going against OSU isn't the same as Texas going against Colorado.

I've seen the games with my own eyes, as have MANY others. When it came down to it in most of those "big" games, our defense failed to get the big stop or failed to halt the other team from going on a game winning drive.

You can throw all the meaningless stats out that you want, but Jim Heacock and his soft zone defense will continue to kill OSU when it matters.

We were very luck against Oregon that defense didn't break and that Oregon fell apart after getting down.

If you guys think Heacock is the guy, so be it. I however, don't.

As for S&L, you have to be the biggest dick rider ever. You can't win your own arguments because you don't have the mental capacity. So what do you do? Wait for somebody to make the argument for you and respond with a "LOL YES, I just jizzed myself"... type of post.

It's sad, really.

Not really, I just don't have that kinda time to look all that up (not saying it took you a lot of time krambman, just saying it would take me a while to find all that). Oh and dick rider? Gay fucking insult.

Oh and we'll continue to look at the stats and you continue to look at that one game 3 years ago where OSU gave up a lot of points.

Bollman does a far worse job with the offense than Heacock does with the defense, Actually the defense does pretty well against top teams most of the time, (Florida and LSU not so much) when the D gets in trouble, (in my opinion) is when the offense doesn't move the ball and they end up playing 3 quarters of the game and wear down. Luke Fickel appears to be the D-coordinator in waiting but having studied under Heacock will probably be much the same. (maybe a little more aggressive) I think the more urgent need is a better offensive coordinator and a better O-Line coach those guys just don;t seem to develop for all the hype they get when recruited.

Ty Webb;561954 wrote:He played well againist Wisconsin?

againist??