Then what is he exactly? He doesnt score, he averages 5 assists per game career with talented wing players and a talented big man on his team, and he isnt known for being a lockdown defender. where exactly does he excel?

jordo212000;542952 wrote:What did you want the Grizz to do? Forfeit the pick because there wasn't somebody there that was worthy of being a #4 pick?

I'm not sure I can take your opinion seriously as you thought Conley played for the T'wolves at some point.

Aaron Brooks I will give you. Stuckey has a career average of 13 ppg so I would be inclined to call that a wash... but Fernandez? Seriously hahahaha

I didnt think Conley was on the Wolves. I mixed up Lowry and Foye and in my haste to post put Foyes old team and not Lowrys.

As for Fernandez, that was probably me trying to support my argument to far. He is a combo guard anyway, so it was a bad choice.

But my point is, it doesnt matter WHO was around when they picked (although they couldve traded). They choose Conley and he was thus the 4th overall pick. Its not necessarily fair on the player when they are listed as underachievers (and maybe that is were we are disagreeing more than anything) but I go by media hype, draft position, draft position of players in close drafts (same position), players drafter around you in your draft (any position), and your on court performance

Conley fits 4/5. He was taken high. He had hype. PGs taken in drafts around him have been more successful. His numbers have been mediocre. He does have going for him the fact that after a few guys, that draft blew a cock.

Fly4Fun;542957 wrote:Laley has some hatred towards Conley... it probably stems from him going to Ohio State and not Indiana.

Seriously though, it's not like he was a #1 pick gone complete bust (Oden). He was a #4 and has been alright. He's still in the league and will probably stick around for awhile. The NBA draft is a crap shoot... just like any other draft.

lol, I dont cheer for OSU in basketball when Indiana is good, but have no issues supporting them when they are bad (last 2 yrs and this year I will be an OSU fan). I know Oden and Conley were before that, but I want every Indiana player to do well. I LOVED Conleys game from the first time I saw him play live as a SO in HS. I said he had a chance to be a better NBA player than Oden then because I had never seen handles like that so young and he was as quick as all get out. Same thing with Thomas this year. No one wants to believe me, but for 3 yrs Ive stated I think he will lead the Bucks in scoring this season. Dude just puts the ball in the hole.

When Oden and Conley committed, most though Conley was a toss in and a 5* because he was with Oden. It took me until the end of the B10 season to convince people Conley was a stud and was EASILY a %* McD AA player. Trust me, I dont root against the success of players I follow in HS. That means, most Indiana HS players and all Toledo HS players.

Hb31187;542972 wrote:Then what is he exactly? He doesnt score, he averages 5 assists per game career with talented wing players and a talented big man on his team, and he isnt known for being a lockdown defender. where exactly does he excel?

Sometimes it takes a player awhile to adapt to the NBA game. Take a look at Chauncey Billups early stats, he was taken 3rd overall. Conley is averaging 15, 8 and 5 so far this season. Sometimes you need to take a chance and lock a guy up when it appears that they are starting to turn the corner, this appears to be the case with Conely.

Look at Steve Nash in his first few seasons, PGs are like QBs, sometimes they take time to develop.

John Wall is ridiculous, just saw his highlights

And for every All star pg who took a few years to develop, there was probably 10-15 who never did

KR1245;542993 wrote:Sometimes it takes a player awhile to adapt to the NBA game. Take a look at Chauncey Billups early stats, he was taken 3rd overall. Conley is averaging 15, 8 and 5 so far this season. Sometimes you need to take a chance and lock a guy up when it appears that they are starting to turn the corner, this appears to be the case with Conely.

See this I agree with! Although, they are REALLY throwing a lot of money. I think COnley will end up being very solid and NOT labeled a bust. Just that thus far he has underachieved.

Id love for the Pacers to take the lock em up long term theory with Collison and Hibbert.

Lakers dismantling the Grizz here in the 2nd.

LO shooting lights out and filling the stat sheet as always. Kobe is 5/6 for an early 12.

The Canon has 7 off the bench and Matt Barnes has 5 and 8 boards off the bench as well.

Did you see E60 tonight? Good segment on Gasol.

I turned it on during the segment about the Nigerian guy with the health problems. I wanted to see the Gasol segment, but forgot it was on.

http://search.espn.go.com/s/overlay/video?searchString=e%2060&id=5757099&dims=6&start=0

Is that the whole segment?? I'll have to take a look at half..

Picking up Butch and the Andre Johnson segment were both pretty good too. So was the Nigerian skeleton guy.

wildcats20;543090 wrote:Is that the whole segment?? I'll have to take a look at half..

Yeah I think so, its 9 minutes long.

Al Horford signed a 5 year $60 million extension with the Hawks today.

Lakers lead 73-46 at half. And if not for Rudy Gay, it wouldn't be that close.

Kobe has 23 on 7/10. Pau has 15 on 7/12. Solid effort from everyone tonight. "Only" shooting 58% but right around 70% from 3.

karen lotz;543093 wrote:Yeah I think so, its 9 minutes long.

Had to LOL at the Pau and Rafa bit.

Yeah Kobe killed my streak for the cash with that. I figured they'd be up big enough and he would maybe get some rest in the second quarter. Him scoring 14 or under was looking good until the last 4 minutes of the half.

Conley's line

16 points (6-11 from the field, 3-4 from 3 point) 1-3 FT's, 5 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals, and only 1 turnover.

He played a pretty good game. His team got crushed because they got destroyed on the boards... 59-36 in favor of the Lakers. So you can't hold this loss against him

lhslep134;539439 wrote:Objectively reading this, you're completely wishy washy on what is a bust. Karen has made a lot of valid points, but you seem intent on shooting them down. Why?


IMO, it's too soon to call anyone a bust. If anyone from 2007 or later is out of the league now, or will be soon, then they're a bust. If not, then the verdicts not final with them.


FWIW, Oden was playing at a high level last year before his injury, that alone should prevent anyone from saying he's a bust. I also believe injuries shouldn't be counted against someone when discussing that player's bust status, although they do matter to me when discussing whether a pick was a bust (i.e. the Blazer's overall #1 pick was a bust, even if Oden isn't, because of injury). Strange ass logic, but that's how I feel.

Agreed. Greg Oden, when on the floor, is a pretty solid player. I think the Blazers #1 pick was a bust but I do not think it is fair to label Oden a bust because he has been injured. IMO that is not something he can really control.

Laley23;539569 wrote:Busts are directly linked to where they were drafted.

Oden, for being the #1 overall is a bust (with time to make amends). But even if he is solid, the fact that Durant went 2 will always make his accomplishments less. Its like The Dream going #2 with Jordan #3.

Conley was a lottery pick. He is playing solid, but not up to his draft position yet. You take PGs in the lottery to lead teams to greatness. He isnt a bust, but he hasnt lived up to the draft position.

Cook was taken really late in the first. Tough to label those guys, but its telling that he regressed a ton last year and has been traded since then.

Koufos and Mullens Im calling a bust already. Guys with their skill sets dont usually improve a whole lot from what we see initially. Its tough for post players to get better. Neither can crack the rotation and Mullens has spent a lot of time in the D league. You dont spend lottery picks for players to not crack the regular rotation by this point in their careers.


As much as its unfair to the players. Busts are related to draft position, media hype and players taken before/after.

Being a top 5 pick does not really mean a whole lot
Stromile Swift
Marcus Fizer
Darius Miles
Kwame Brown
Eddy Curry
Jay Williams***
Mike Dunleavy
Drew Gooden
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Darko Milicic
Shaun Livingston***
Adam Morrison
Tyrus Thomas
Shelden Williams
Greg Oden***
Hasheem Thabeet
Ricky Rubio***


The only draft that I do not think had a bust in the top 5 was 2005, but I guess you could make the argument that Marvin Williams has been a bust. Maybe 2008 as well. There are a bunch of top 5ers I would say Conley is comparable to in terms of impact on the court(without looking up stats so I could be dead wrong) : Mike Miller, Kenyon Martin, Marvin Williams, Tyson Chandler, Andrea Bargnani, Jeff Green. After looking at it, there were more duds than studs. Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, Tyreke Evans, Derrick Rose and Kevin Durant have all become really good or great. Then there is that second tier of guys that have become pretty good but not REALLY good and certainly not great: Jason Richardson, Raymond Felton, Yao(could be argued as being great I guess), Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, Devin Harris, Andrew Bogut, Lamarcus Alridge, Al Horford, and Russell Westbrook, OJ Mayo, Kevin Love, Michael Beasley.

So in the last 9 years there have been 11 guys that I would say are really, really good that got picked in the top 5. Add in the 13 that I said I would consider as being good but not really good. Then there are the guys that are just average players or maybe a little above that. So if there have been 45 top 5 picks since 2000…about 28% go on to be studs, about 25% to be guys that are good second or third options, about 38% completely suck ass and have provided next to nothing for their teams. Then 20% are in the area Conley is---not a great player, not a pretty good player, but a good player. Given that Conley was drafted in the back end of the top 5, I would say he is fitting in right about where he should be when compared to other players/drafts.

Overall I agree with what you are saying but I also do not think you can really label Oden a bust simply because of the guy that went directly after him. Obviously the Blazers would love to redo that pick but if someone is a bust because of who a team could have had then Hakeem Olajuwon was a bust, Carmelo Anthony is a bust, and Chris Bosh is a bust.

Kinda disappointed the Cavs lost tonight...0-3 now since that rather-surprising win against the Celtics. Like I said, their next six games are against...probably inferior teams of the east (although New Jersey and Indiana have winning records currently but we'll see how much longer that remains)

Good discussion on Conley going back and forth and I think both sides made good arguments. I agree that I thought Memphis reached for him and that he wasn't going to live up to #5 expectations. He probably should have went outside of the lottery, and if he would have, I guess everyone's perspective of him changes based upon 10 draft slots. So, with that said, I think at this point in his career you can only compare him to other PG's. He's a fairly average PG in the NBA (if not below average), but Memphis likes him and paid him.

Have you seen the developing story on ESPN that Garnett called Charlie Villanueva a 'cancer patient' in last night's game? Villanueva has been complaining about it on his twitter account. Doesn't surprise me -- sounds like something KG would say. I didn't realize that Villanueva actually does suffer from a alopecia universalis, though.

First I've heard of that, but it's not surprising. I've never had much respect for Garnett and always thought he was vastly overrated. He's lucky Villanueva didn't knock him out though.

How are Bogut, OJ Mayo, Al Horford(all star), and Russell Westbrook not REALLY good?