Very well said, majorspark.

Glory Days;458743 wrote:i thought i saw on the news the building was already approved like 6 months ago or something, i may be wrong though.

I did a Google search and found that you are right. Some interesting reading came up and I can't provide the link because I am on my "crackberry", but if you Google "who approved the mosque by Helen Moore" you will find it.

Footwedge;458435 wrote:Do you honestly believe that the Muslim Religion will actually take over the US? I mean. Come on. Like McEnroe said. "You cannot be serious."

...

You, sir or ma'am, are oblivious to the planet on which you live. Tell me please what the end result of Islam is and how it is to come about? It is SO much more than just America and Americans. Infidels come from all sorts of nations, heritages and cultures!

believer;458681 wrote:That's great of you Fairwood. If and when Sharia law takes hold in the United States (and some say it already has in some areas), just keep in mind that Islam makes evangelical Christianity seem ultra-liberal when it comes to acceptance of things like - say - gay activism.

You really are afraid of everything aren't you believer? Or do you think your arguments can't stand on their validity without some fear mongering? LOOK OUT! THE EVVVIIIILL MUSLIMS ARE TAKING OVER!!

Jason Bourne;458771 wrote:You, sir or ma'am, are oblivious to the planet on which you live. Tell me please what the end result of Islam is and how it is to come about? It is SO much more than just America and Americans. Infidels come from all sorts of nations, heritages and cultures!

New Yorkers and other Americans can certainly voice their complaints on this Muslim religious Center near ground zero. I understand the argument quite well. Where the problem lies...is in your statement here....and the statements made above by Believer. Do we want to encourage perpetual religious wars? Is that the intent?

About 70% of fundamentalist Christians share this view...that the Muslims are going to overtake the world. Only about 30% of other Christian denominations feel that way...i.e. Catholics and main stream Protestants.

To suggest that even 10% of Muslims here and abroad want to globalize Sharia law IMO is laughable. I am sorry...but it is. The US Constitution has it's own guidelines...under our own sovereignty....and there is zero possibility of this happening. Zero. Yes I live on this planet...and I really don't understand the hatred towards the entire Muslim religions. You do know that the Old and New Testaments have the same verbiage on "killing the religious enemy" correct? I will post them if you'd like.

For now....how about reading this link...whereby 6 American Muslim political activists....all staunch conservative Republicans, have stated their views on the party dividing xenophobic rants against the 1 billion Muslim population.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/muslim-and-arab-republicans-take-issue-with-g-o-p-on-mosque/

Writerbuckeye;458643 wrote:I haven't seen anyone say they don't have a right to build it. I have seen LOTS of folks saying it is wrong for a variety of other reasons.

Oh and Footwedge, go ask folks in Western Europe about whether they feel Islamization is a threat to them, even without an army of Muslims crossing the continent. There is more than one way to conquer an enemy -- it doesn't have to involve overwhelming force. But then, you knew that I'm sure. You were just playing dumb to make a point.

Not very much in the know on the Muslims in Europe. I've maybe caught an article or 2...and if I'm remembering correctly, the main complaint deals with immigration and working illegally...or at the very least, the immigrant Muslims are not contributing to their society in a productive way..

That is quite a contrast to the American Muslim class. American Muslims have a much fewer ratio of people incarcerated in comparison to the American populace at large. Moreover, the American Muslim population makes a significantly higher wage per capita. American Muslims also have a higher college graduate rate, a higher masters degree rate, and a higher doctorate degree rate than the rest of Americans do.

Footwedge, are you a Muslim??

American Muslims have a much fewer ratio of people incarcerated in comparison to the American populace at large.

5. A very significant part of the Muslim community in North America is in prison since 30% of all incarcerated African-Americans are Muslims who have accepted Islam in prison in the tradition of Malik Shabaz (Malcom X) and Imam Jamil Al-Amin (the former H. Rap Brown)

Moreover, the American Muslim population makes a significantly higher wage per capita.

11. Muslims' Income:
There are no recent studies available about Muslim income level nationally. However, if an Illinois study is taken as representative of Muslims in America, Muslims have an average household income of $53,500. The average Arab Muslim family income is the highest at $69,000, while African-American Muslim families earn the least at $32,000 per year

Which statements are correct?

http://www.allied-media.com/AM/AM-profile.htm

majorspark;458682 wrote:
Personally I think the Imam behind this at worst holds radical extremist islamic beliefs. At best he sympathizes with them. I think he chose a location as close as he could get to ground zero to make a point to the muslim world.

Why do you believe this? Do you believe him to be lying when he says that he wants to build bridges and insists on promoting moderate Islam? Why do you believe him to be lying if you do think he is?

It would seem to me that if he was truly interested in building bridges, he would be more sensitive to some of his fellow countrymen's feelings and build the mosque farhter away. It is unfortunate that radical members, in the name of their religion, attacked and continue to attack western institutions and individuals.That does not mean, that the peaceful followers of that religion get preferred 'victim' status anymore than catholics and good upstanding, priests of that religion get, because of a few pedophile priests. Indeed, we should hold Islam to the same standard that we hold the Catholic Church....demand that they police themselves...demand that they out the radicals to authorities. They should themselves be sensitive to those that have been harmed in the name of their religion.

Moreover, the situation with radical Islam is NOT resolved. Nor is radical Islam just a few abherrent individuals, but a significant worldwide network. They have declared war on us...and we have declared war on them. I don't think it is too much to ask...that until such conflict is resolved, that peaceful AMERICAN muslims be sensitive to non muslims around them.

HitsRus;458881 wrote:It would seem to me that if he was truly interested in building bridges, he would be more sensitive to some of his fellow countrymen's feelings and build the mosque farhter away. It is unfortunate that radical members, in the name of their religion, attacked and continue to attack western institutions and individuals.That does not mean, that the peaceful followers of that religion get preferred 'victim' status anymore than catholics and good upstanding, priests of that religion get, because of a few pedophile priests. Indeed, we should hold Islam to the same standard that we hold the Catholic Church....demand that they police themselves...demand that they out the radicals to authorities. Moreover, they should themselves be sensitive to those that have been harmed in the name of their religion.

Forgive me...I'm not seeing that here.

Ok. Just trying to understand to what extent good muslims should go to to police themselves and respect the tragic events of 9/11; Do you think Masjid Manhattan, a Mosque four blocks away on Warren St. should have to move? Or do you think because it's already there it's fine for it to stay. If it's ok for Masjid Manhattan to stay, and its four blocks away, would four blocks away be far enough away for the current Mosque being proposed?

I trust polls about as much as I trust a screen door on a submarine. You should read their holy book and listen to THEIR point of view or their goals. And if and when you do, you will see that infidels are not to be tolerated or accepted. They are to be converted or destroyed. Do you know what the opposite of a Muslim is? That's right! An infidel. There is no middle ground...only those yet to be converted or killed. Paint it how you want, but that's what the book says.

Jason Bourne;458890 wrote:I trust polls about as much as I trust a screen door on a submarine. You should read their holy book and listen to THEIR point of view or their goals. And if and when you do, you will see that infidels are not to be tolerated or accepted. They are to be converted or destroyed. Do you know what the opposite of a Muslim is? That's right! An infidel. There is no middle ground...only those yet to be converted or killed. Paint it how you want, but that's what the book says.

Are you so sure of this interpretation and that it is the doctrine adhered to by most Muslims? the Torah says some awful things that most Jews do not adhere to. Why can't a person believe in Muhammad and Allah and adhere to a Muslim faith and yet lead a reasonable life balancing that against conventional morality like a great many christians do? Most people who call themselves Christians aren't "On fire for God" and lead normal conventional lives being basically good humans and citizens although they may fell well short of the puritanical example of Christ.

Sorry Boat Shoes. Jason is right - that is their mission. Quran 9:5

Ankle Breaker;458913 wrote:Sorry Boat Shoes. Jason is right - that is their mission. Quran 9:5

It's a Christians mission to deny themselves and take up their cross and follow christ and yet I don't see most christians living their lives that way that hardcore.

Footwedge;458827 wrote:That is quite a contrast to the American Muslim class. American Muslims have a much fewer ratio of people incarcerated in comparison to the American populace at large. Moreover, the American Muslim population makes a significantly higher wage per capita. American Muslims also have a higher college graduate rate, a higher masters degree rate, and a higher doctorate degree rate than the rest of Americans do.

Are well educated American Muslims magically immune to the influences of radical Islam?

I'm curious to know what will happen in the future. Whatever does happen will happen long after I'm gone, but I'm still interested. I recently read an article that stated that within 50 years, Western Europe will be an Islamic state. The same thing could take place in America. Muslims are taking over many places where they didn't even exist a generation or two ago. Are they going to try to do away with freedom of religion in the US? And what will happen to my pet issue, gay rights? Muslims are some of the most homophobic people on earth. And what is going to happen to Israel? For whatever reason that I don't understand, Jews and Muslims hate each other.

The Muslims I know are peaceful people who want to coexist with others. I wish all the Muslims were that way.

believer;458972 wrote:Are well educated American Muslims magically immune to the influences of radical Islam?

That applies to every religion. Geesh.

Ankle Breaker;458913 wrote:Sorry Boat Shoes. Jason is right - that is their mission. Quran 9:5

And you know all Muslims, especially the ones in the Cordoba center will believe this? Evidence that this Iman will preach that aspect of the Qur'an?
From my readings and discussions it means something completely different-speaking about idol worshipers and people who do not believe in God.

majorspark;458682 wrote: Personally I think the Imam behind this at worst holds radical extremist islamic beliefs. At best he sympathizes with them. I think he chose a location as close as he could get to ground zero to make a point to the muslim world. Like you I think he should clear this all up and pick another spot.

I think that's the bottom line.

Footwedge;458815 wrote: To suggest that even 10% of Muslims here and abroad want to globalize Sharia law IMO is laughable. I am sorry...but it is. The US Constitution has it's own guidelines...under our own sovereignty....and there is zero possibility of this happening. Zero. Yes I live on this planet...and I really don't understand the hatred towards the entire Muslim religions. You do know that the Old and New Testaments have the same verbiage on "killing the religious enemy" correct? I will post them if you'd like.

There are certainly examples of religious wars recorded in the Old Testament carried out by the Israelites under Joshua (and later Samuel/Saul), but you can read the New Testament 1000 times forwards, backwards, in Greek, English, or whatever, and you won't find a single example of Jesus or one of his apostles instructing their followers to kill religious enemies or conduct religious wars on unbelievers. You will find mutiple verses stating just the opposite.

Not sure how you can say there's "zero" chance of our Constitution being overridden/usurped by a form of sharia law. It's well on its way through the shredder as we speak.

BoatShoes;458857 wrote:Why do you believe this? Do you believe him to be lying when he says that he wants to build bridges and insists on promoting moderate Islam? Why do you believe him to be lying if you do think he is?

He needs to clarify his statement that the US was an accessory to 9/11 (among other controversial statements), and he needs to explain why he won't label Hamas a terrorist organization.

Therein lies the conflict for those who view this as a religious freedom issue (which I don't believe it is). Suppose Imam Rauf really did support radical Islam and the furtherance of sharia law (as I believe he does) and came out and blatantly, agressively said so: A) Do you really think he would expect to have a shot at building a victory monument, ERRRRRR, community center near Ground Zero? and B) Would the left in the US still be saying, "They have a right to build the mosque and worship as they choose"?

BoatShoes;458857 wrote:Why do you believe this? Do you believe him to be lying when he says that he wants to build bridges and insists on promoting moderate Islam? Why do you believe him to be lying if you do think he is?

Because of various past statements made by him. He said the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened on 9/11. Originally wanting to name the site the "Cordoba House". A well known muslim conquest in Europe. He refuses to condemn Hamas. Implying that christians were respsible for Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki bombings.

Of course none of these things in and of themselves proves the intentions of his heart. My gut instincts tell me something just don't add up. I have been wrong before but I smell a rat on this one. I live comfortably in rural Ohio. I am not a citizen of NY so my instincts don't mean much. The people of NY, especially NYC will have to sniff this rat out.

Boat if your purpose was to build bridges between Islam and Christianity in Saudi Arabia it would make sense to me to start building them by giving deference to large numbers of the populations feelings. If you are in a predominantly Muslim nation humility and understanding would be the way to go. Even if there was nothing wrong with your intentions.

jhay78;459100 wrote:I think that's the bottom line.



There are certainly examples of religious wars recorded in the Old Testament carried out by the Israelites under Joshua (and later Samuel/Saul), but you can read the New Testament 1000 times forwards, backwards, in Greek, English, or whatever, and you won't find a single example of Jesus or one of his apostles instructing their followers to kill religious enemies or conduct religious wars on unbelievers. You will find mutiple verses stating just the opposite.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm

That's just 2 of the many quotes from the new testament...I can find many others...that promote utter violence against the "non believers".

Not sure how you can say there's "zero" chance of our Constitution being overridden/usurped by a form of sharia law. It's well on its way through the shredder as we speak.

The Constitution is being shredded by Sharia Law? SMH.

Explain to me exactly how the Muslim religion will overtake the United States. Do you really think that? I mean...come on...

I think Muslims should be sensitive to the feelings of the families of the 9/11 victims and not build a mosque at that location only if the Japanese are sensitive to the feelings of Pearl Harbor victims and not live in Hawaii.

This is the most ignorant argument I have read in a long time. Some of the accusations tossed towards Muslims is ridiculous. As someone who grew up in a Muslim family (my father's side) and grew up going to a mosque (I don't claim any religion as my faith though) I can say I have never in my life seen with my own eyes or heard with my own ears any Muslim talk about destroying the infidels. And I grew up in one of the most populated places in the country (outside of the middle east) of arabs and muslims and attended one of the largest mosques in North America.

No matter what most of you on here say, you have had limited to no contact with muslims except for what you see sensationalized on television or what Fox News pumps into your heads. I have grown up with these people and although I may not believe in their religion, I have never heard any of them talk about killing anyone because they think differently and I have encountered thousands of muslims throughtout my 28 years.

As to the topic, I see no reason why this mosque shouldn't be able to legally build at this location. Personal opinions mean jack shit in this situation. As long as they are abiding by the laws of the United States and New York, what is the problem? Grow some thicker skin people. Just because someone is different than you, you shouldn't ostricize them. Didn't we learn that as children? The way some are speaking on here, we should bring back the "seperate, but equal" mentality.

Christ, the way some people feel on here you'd think these people were involved on 9/11.

jhay78;459100 wrote:
Not sure how you can say there's "zero" chance of our Constitution being overridden/usurped by a form of sharia law. It's well on its way through the shredder as we speak.

Maybe not a "zero" percent chance, but i would say Gibby being the GOP nominee for President in 2012 is more likely.

Are you serious with this stuff?

I mean, Major, Writer, Believer, and others have some valid points on this thread, and i can see where they are coming from. Doesn't mean i agree with them, but their ideas are at least based in some sort of reality.

This is not.

You might as well call yourself a liberal, and join our side. You've now learned to fear monger and take things to ridiculous extremes in order to make a point.

Rahm would be proud, as you're certainly not letting this "crisis" go to waste.

ptown_trojans_1;459072 wrote:That applies to every religion. Geesh.

Maybe I forgot to use "sarcasm alert" in my post? C'mon Ptown...I'd hope you know me better than that.