Mulva;412088 wrote:Ordinarily reclamation projects wouldn't be mistakes. But Shapiro signs these guys with the intention of plugging them into the 5 man rotation (a la Bere), the back end of the bullpen (a la Graves), or starting positions (a la Gonzalez take 2). When you try to catch lightning in a bottle as your calling card and it repeatedly fails, then yes they are mistakes in my opinion.

Kevin Millwood, Scot Elarton, and Carl Pavano all fit this bill also, with Millwood having a tremendous year in '05 and the other two proving as serviceable starters in '05 and '09, respectively.

Mulva;412088 wrote:Utility infielders usually wouldn't be mistakes either, but since Wedge loved platooning so much the utility guys ended up becoming regular fixtures in the starting lineup pretty frequently, which makes them pretty important pieces. If you start at 3rd one day, then 2nd, then short, you are still starting all 3 games. Just because you don't have a set position doesn't mean you can't be a mistake.

Mike Rouse was with the Indians for something like four months in 2007, which is roughly 100 games. He played in only 39 games and started a whopping 20. He was the very definition of a utility infielder, no matter who is managing the team.

It may be that reclamation projects have actually been his strong suit, but Mike Rouse was terrible. The funny thing, is that we groused about Rouse(pun intended) because he barely hit .200. Look what we are sending up to the plate now as regulars.

Jason Nix has been a pleasant surprise since being picked up... Shelley Duncan, Austin Kearns, etc..

Turning Blake into Carlos Santana, are you kidding me?

Shin Soo-Choo, Asdrubal Cabrera were got for Eduardo Perez and Ben Broussard...

Bartolo was traded for Grady, Cliff, and Brandon Phillips..

Travis Hafner was had for...... His name escapes me

Point is, you can do this for ANY GM.. But not many GM's are working for a cheap ass owner. While Shapiro has had his shortcomings, he's also turned shit into gold.

kayo;412164 wrote:Kevin Millwood, Scot Elarton, and Carl Pavano all fit this bill also, with Millwood having a tremendous year in '05 and the other two proving as serviceable starters in '05 and '09, respectively.



Mike Rouse was with the Indians for something like four months in 2007, which is roughly 100 games. He played in only 39 games and started a whopping 20. He was the very definition of a utility infielder, no matter who is managing the team.

I wouldn't call Pavano serviceable personally. He had a select few good starts, but a 5.37 era is pretty awful overall. The other two are both good calls, and obviously MS hasn't missed on every single move he's ever made (that would be impossible for anyone to do), but I think the results show that it's pretty evident the misses far outweigh the hits.

Oh, and Mike Rouse only made my list because he batted .119. I know he was the least important piece possible, but he still started 20 more games in 2007 than he ever should have in the major leagues. He was to this day the worst major leaguer I've ever seen, so he was listed by default for that achievement.

But I've given my opinion, and we'll just agree to disagree I guess. When this season ends, you can be happy that a guy who put together teams that finished .500 or worse 7 times in 9 years is getting promoted, and I will sit back and wonder how someone who set my team back so far kept his job as long as he did.

To me the Indians problems mainly arise from their terrible drafting. They haven't really drafted that many guys and sent them through the system.

jordo212000;412213 wrote:To me the Indians problems mainly arise from their terrible drafting. They haven't really drafted that many guys and sent them through the system.

Agreed. Most of their legit prospects in the minors were acquired via trade. They haven't drafted well since the John Hart years or maybe before.

jordo212000;412213 wrote:To me the Indians problems mainly arise from their terrible drafting. They haven't really drafted that many guys and sent them through the system.

Exactly. My main beef with the Tribe FO has been the draft.

The Cliff Lee trade was BAD.. But Jason Donald is looking like he's going to be a good player. Certainly not enough to justify trading Lee with another year on his contract though..

B.P.sucked when thew Tribe let him go.

Yeah, he sucked because Derek Shelton and Eric Wedge wanted him to change his swing. Phillips got in their doghouse because he resisted after not having any success. Phillips came to spring camp rady to play and was hitting well over .300 when Bean Brain decided to keep Ramon Vasquez and with Phillips out of options,trade him for whatever he could get. The rest is history as Phillips blossomed once out of Shelton/Wedge clutches. Basically, they needed to just leave a talented player alone....see also Andy Marte who was also ruined.

I don't like the Cliff Lee trade any more than any of you do. But don't forget about Carrasco. He has made some pretty big strides this year in Cbus.

That's why you really can't judge a trade in the first year. If Carrasco turns out to be a good ML starter and Donald continues to improve, the trade doesn't hurt as much.

The same can be said for the VMart trade. Nick Hagedone is potentially a front end starter. He could make that a very good trade. We just don't know yet.

royal_k;412853 wrote:I don't like the Cliff Lee trade any more than any of you do. But don't forget about Carrasco. He has made some pretty big strides this year in Cbus.

That's why you really can't judge a trade in the first year. If Carrasco turns out to be a good ML starter and Donald continues to improve, the trade doesn't hurt as much.

The same can be said for the VMart trade. Nick Hagedone is potentially a front end starter. He could make that a very good trade. We just don't know yet.

But we couldve gotten those players in a week and had Lee the last year...that is the biggest issue.

Laley23;412886 wrote:But we couldve gotten those players in a week and had Lee the last year...that is the biggest issue.

Can't argue that.