tsst_fballfan
Posts: 406
Jun 17, 2010 11:19am
It would seem that is what happened. The point I see is that the punch was not with regard to jaywalking, as many seem to think, but rather assault. The second girl grabbed then pushed the officer. That in about every case equals assault on an officer so justifying his escalation. IMHO.fan_from_texas;392651 wrote:... I think we're saying that the police escalation needs to be commensurate with the gravity of the offense, ....
justincredible
Posts: 32,056
Jun 17, 2010 11:24am
tsst_fballfan;392700 wrote:It would seem that is what happened. The point I see is that the punch was not with regard to jaywalking, as many seem to think, but rather assault. The second girl grabbed then pushed the officer. That in about every case equals assault on an officer so justifying his escalation. IMHO.
IMO, it's the officers fault for letting it get that far. Obviously he didn't punch her for jaywalking, and I don't feel sorry for her for getting decked, I just feel that an officer should be able to detain a teenage girl a little easier than this guy did.
tsst_fballfan
Posts: 406
Jun 17, 2010 11:27am
I would agree with that. Would be nice to see what led up to that point.justincredible;392706 wrote:IMO, it's the officers fault for letting it get that far. Obviously he didn't punch her for jaywalking, and I don't feel sorry for her for getting decked, I just feel that an officer should be able to detain a teenage girl a little easier than this guy did.
martyirish
Posts: 490
Jun 17, 2010 11:37am
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isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 17, 2010 11:44am
You seem to have revised your opinion, from one in which police abuse was constant and you were squarely in the cop hater group seemingly without any negative personal experience with them.Fan_From_Texas wrote:That's a pretty broad generalization, don't you think? I'm
squarely in the "be wary of the police" camp, and it's not because I've ever had any run-ins with them. It's because I've seen plenty of outrageous officer conduct going through the legal clinics at my law school. I previously walked the party line and said that you should always listen to the cops, shouldn't resist, etc. But when I actually saw the sort of stuff that occurs--on a very regular basis, and often caught on tape--it blew my mind. …
Police abuse occurs constantly.
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fan_from_texas
Posts: 2,693
Jun 17, 2010 11:50am
isadore;392744 wrote:You seem to have revised your opinion, from one in which police abuse was constant and you were squarely in the cop hater group seemingly without any negative personal experience with them.
I didn't revise my opinion, though it's possible that you drew an incorrect inference from it earlier. Did you bother to read what I wrote previously? I've consistently maintained that (1) police abuse happens regularly, and (2) police abuse occurs in a small minority of cases. These aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not in the "cop hater group"--I'm in the "be wary of the police" group. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about cops, on the whole. Like I've maintained throughout this thread, most are good people, though there are some bad apples. Pointing out that there are some bad apples != hating cops.
What about this do you find to be objectionable?
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isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 17, 2010 1:40pm
what does be wary of the police mean? be watchful around them, be suspicious of them? what?fan_from_texas;392751 wrote:I didn't revise my opinion, though it's possible that you drew an incorrect inference from it earlier. Did you bother to read what I wrote previously? I've consistently maintained that (1) police abuse happens regularly, and (2) police abuse occurs in a small minority of cases. These aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not in the "cop hater group"--I'm in the "be wary of the police" group. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about cops, on the whole. Like I've maintained throughout this thread, most are good people, though there are some bad apples. Pointing out that there are some bad apples != hating cops.
What about this do you find to be objectionable?
justincredible
Posts: 32,056
Jun 17, 2010 1:42pm
ccrunner609;392906 wrote:I would bet that those girls took it that far
They shouldn't have had the chance. It's embarrassing to watch his "attempt" to restrain them. Use a little force in the beginning and get things under control quickly.
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fan_from_texas
Posts: 2,693
Jun 17, 2010 1:50pm
isadore;392907 wrote:what does be wary of the police mean? be watchful around them, be suspicious of them? what?
I'm using it to mean something along the lines of:
I'm not sure how anyone can accuse this of being left-wing ACLU criminal-lovin' rhetoric, nor does it strike me (pun intended) to be something worthy of wishing that someone die over it, as Tiernan contends.Don't automatically assume that 100% of what someone who identifies himself/herself as a police officer says is entirely, exactly true and accurate. Though it's often easiest and best scrupulously to follow officer directives, certain orders may be disregarded if they are outside the realm of reason and appear to create risks of significant harm or the commission of morally objectionable actions. While these instances are likely few and far between, "following orders" is not a justification for abdicating personal responsibility.
Moreover, while the overwhelming majority of police officers are generally honest and reliable, particularly compared to the criminals who complain about them, they are not infallible, and disinterested 3rd parties must rigorously investigate alleged abuse. One area where a minority of officers appear to err is in escalating force in situations that may not require it. These situations necessitate additional review in confirming that the officers are acting appropriately.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Jun 17, 2010 2:02pm
justincredible;392910 wrote:They shouldn't have had the chance. It's embarrassing to watch his "attempt" to restrain them. Use a little force in the beginning and get things under control quickly.
yeah but then he would have gotten in trouble with the public for treating her too roughly during handcuffing for jaywalking when he takes her to the ground or up against the car.
Glory Days
Posts: 7,809
Jun 17, 2010 2:14pm
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isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 17, 2010 2:27pm
I guess some would stop advising children to seek out a police officer, if they are lost or threatened. But instead keep an attitude of wariness toward them. Maybe we could start wariness education in kindergarten.
In this particular case, they got what they deserved, they resisted, they laid hands on him.
Now if he shot them both, maybe a review board then. Maybe
In this particular case, they got what they deserved, they resisted, they laid hands on him.
Now if he shot them both, maybe a review board then. Maybe
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I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Jun 17, 2010 2:45pm
isadore, I get that it's your gig to troll people's comments and make ridiculous assumptions but god damn man.
Haha, maybe a review board if he would have killed them both?
Haha, maybe a review board if he would have killed them both?
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isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 17, 2010 3:20pm
I just write what I believe. Two people attacked a police officer.
Some people might wonder about you who refused to condemn the murderers of American servicepeople as evil.
Oh thats right that is not a bad joke, it is what you actually believe.
Some people might wonder about you who refused to condemn the murderers of American servicepeople as evil.
Oh thats right that is not a bad joke, it is what you actually believe.
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fan_from_texas
Posts: 2,693
Jun 17, 2010 3:27pm
isadore;393001 wrote:I just write what I believe. Two people attacked a police officer.
Some people might wonder about you who refused to condemn the murderers of American servicepeople as evil.
What are you talking about?
I'm trying to figure out if you're intentionally trolling, or if you're just honestly incapable of following a train of thought.
FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
Jun 17, 2010 3:29pm
fan_from_texas;393008 wrote:What are you talking about?
I'm trying to figure out if you're intentionally trolling, or if you're just honestly incapable of following a train of thought.
lol. Good luck arguing with him...
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isadore
Posts: 7,762
Jun 17, 2010 3:29pm
just writing about people's expressed beliefs.
Red_Skin_Pride
Posts: 1,226
Jun 17, 2010 4:44pm
Haha yes! As most of Chris Rock's stuff goes, it's funny because its primarily true.
"If you jump a turnstyle carrying a loaded gun and smoking a joint, maybe you need your ass kicked"
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I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Jun 17, 2010 5:24pm
He's intentionally trolling. I refuse to believe that it's possible to misunderstand everything that one reads as much as he does.
justincredible
Posts: 32,056
Jun 17, 2010 5:35pm
ccrunner609;393062 wrote:She wasnt getting handcuffed for jaywalking.....
Correct.
This is how it should have gone down (with some assumptions about what happened before the footage started):
Policeman is giving ticket to male for jaywalking and notices the females jaywalking.
He calls them over to his car so he can ticket them as well.
The females get bitchy with him about the ticket.
He tells them to calm down or he will put them under arrest.
They keep bitching and he tries to cuff them and they resist.
He then uses appropriate force to handcuff them.
Done.
Had he not pussyfooted around in the beginning when trying to restrain them he would've saved himself the embarrassment.
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I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Jun 17, 2010 6:22pm
True. Or he could have ignored the bitching and just wrote the tickets anyway.
If they still weren't listening then yeah, arrest them. But actually arrest them instead of pushing the one girl back and forth around the car. Just cuff her. Not that hard.
If they still weren't listening then yeah, arrest them. But actually arrest them instead of pushing the one girl back and forth around the car. Just cuff her. Not that hard.
believer
Posts: 8,153
Jun 17, 2010 6:45pm
Correct. When the situation started to escalate the cop should have called and waited for back-up. He also should have requested a female cop to be brought to the scene.Mohican00;391299 wrote:So if I get a ticket for jaywalking my punishment is getting punched in the face?
Clearly this cop lost his cool and completely mishandled this. If you're going to restrain a suspect then do it, don't just uncomfortably wrestle around with him/her and cause a big scene. Take control of the situation.
Obviously the girl was at fault because she broke rule #1 in dealing with cops:
Always be calm and cool
and in addition, know your rights and don't get tricked into waiving them.
These punk girls were wrong...but this cop decided he could overpower instead of control the situation. The girls need punished for resisting arrest and the cop needs some additional training before jumping back into the cruiser.
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I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
Jun 17, 2010 6:57pm
That's pretty reasonable. Don't got to suspend the guy or anything. Just make it so he's better prepared to handle the situation should it ever arise again.
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Sonofanump
Jun 17, 2010 7:11pm
Don't grab and get aggressive at an officer and you do not worry about getting jacked in the face.
Strapping Young Lad
Posts: 2,453
Jun 17, 2010 7:36pm
Learn how to subdue a rowdy female swiftly and put the cuffs on her and you won't have a questionable video of you floating around the internet. See how that works? Like I said, if you are a man and you slug a girl in the face, cop or not, people are going to question your actions. Welcome to life on planet earth (or western civ, maybe).