majorspark;388604 wrote:Got anything to back that up? Whether it is true are not is not the point. It exists at all levels of government as well as the private sector.

My point is that it has the potential to be most harmful to the most number of people is at the federal leve,l where its affects are felt by 300 plus million people.



Another good argument against a single payer health care system administered by the federal government. Like George Bush, any Chief executive or federal congressman can bring his/her cronies from their state government. They can use their influence to get them appointed powerful positions in the new Federal Health Care Administration, and they can rule over all 300 plus million Americans health care needs. Sounds great.

while far from perfect we have some filters as to hiring at federal level, for the large majority of workers there is civil service and for those in the highest level of appointed jobs, they must be confirmed by a majority vote of the Senate. On the other hand the place where we find cronyism and nepotism at a level far above those found in even local and state government is private industry. Cronyism forces half of U.S managers to hire someone they don't want. The research by website HR.BLR.com found cronyism was the common reason why people were forced to hire someone.

http://www.management-issues.com/2007/8/31/research/cronyism-forces-half-of-us-managers-to-hire-someone-they-dont-want.asp
Lets cut down cronyism in the health industry with the single payer system, rah, rah, rah!

FairwoodKing;387400 wrote:I like Obama and I will vote for him again in 2012. He has spent most of the past 18 months cleaning up Bush's messes.

Well at least you have taken the mantra hook line and sinker, now come up with a thought of your own not produced by Obama or the media.

I think I get what you're saying Swamp Fox.

I too had traditionally sided with more conservative ideals and I still do on some subjects (gun rights being a good example). But lately the people who have been running the party have put me off it.

isadore;388495 wrote:I sure hope to have the life span and see the infant mortality rate found in the advanced nations with government run health care system
Of course Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove were there from the get go as were so many others, who would be rewarded by practice of cronyism
As soon as Bush got to town he had government jobs for Harriet, Michael and Alberto Gonzalez. And then each because of their great talents were able to rise within the government to areas of even greater incompetence.
Throughout the 2008 campaign Obama pushed for a stronger effort in Afghanistan and winding down in Iraq which we are in the process of doing.

When lefties bring up the infant mortality rates of government-run systems as an example of how superior it is -- I literally laugh out loud.

You do realize that how they count infant deaths in those countries is very different than here. If a child even takes one breath, it's an infant death in the US. In most other countries, the child has to be a certain size and/or live a certain number of days before it's considered a live birth.

Throw in the fact that the US has the technologies to try and save more premature births that simply die in many of those other countries, and your different is accounted for and then some.

Here's an older piece by Dr. Bernadine Healy that appeared in US News & World Report. It's still relevant today when talking about stats.

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/060924/2healy.htm

Isa,

You and I plainly see things or approach them in a different manner. You cannot critique Obama, Emmanuel, or whoever without comparison to somebody else.
I, however, think that any politician including Obama, R.E., etc., are big people and can stand alone with what they do or don't do.

Interesting, don't ya think?

Fox,

I think it's sort of ironic on how, over time, we've basically come to the same conclusion.

I was born and raised in a democrat supporting family. In my late teens and early 20's (pardon the cliche's here, but it's true) I was about as liberal as any liberal poster on here could be. Turns out, much like you, over time I really took notice on what was going on in my chosen party and it didn't sit well with me.
That is not to say, that I'm wanting to become a raging republican, because I don't. I have thought about it a time or two, admittedly. But, I just can't seem to bring myself to do it. I still vote democratic but I also vote republican.

Whereas you sound like you started off with republican views and maybe are in the process of changing your ideology(?)

At any rate, I think it's clear that we've both reach an anathema to political parties, eh?

Writerbuckeye;388731 wrote:When lefties bring up the infant mortality rates of government-run systems as an example of how superior it is -- I literally laugh out loud.

You do realize that how they count infant deaths in those countries is very different than here. If a child even takes one breath, it's an infant death in the US. In most other countries, the child has to be a certain size and/or live a certain number of days before it's considered a live birth.

Throw in the fact that the US has the technologies to try and save more premature births that simply die in many of those other countries, and your different is accounted for and then some.

Here's an older piece by Dr. Bernadine Healy that appeared in US News & World Report. It's still relevant today when talking about stats.

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/060924/2healy.htm

DR. Bernadine Healy now there is a dependable source
A wannabe Republican Senate candidate
Former head of the Red Cross
During her two year tenure the organization received a record fine from the FDA for mishandling diseased blood products
She was forced out for mishandling funds during the 9/11 crisis
She served on the board of the Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, a lobby ground funded by Philip Morris while claiming to be opposed to smoking.
In 2008 she accepted Person of the Year award Vaccine Cause of Autism group for her endorsement of the complete disproven and rejected theory that Vaccinations cause autism /
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/31/eveningnews/main517045.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/23/magazine/who-brought-bernadine-healy-down.html?pagewanted=all
http://tobaccodocuments.org/pm/2505646347-6368.html?zoom=750&ocr_position=above_foramatted&start_page=21
Letting the Red Cross use diseased blood products, failing in efforts at 9/11, a cardiologist working for a cigarette company’s lobby firm and pushing a false claim that has lead to untold number of children not receiving the vaccinations needed to protect them from killing communicable diseases.

isadore;388816 wrote:DR. Bernadine Healy now there is a dependable source
A wannabe Republican Senate candidate
Former head of the Red Cross
During her two year tenure the organization received a record fine from the FDA for mishandling diseased blood products
She was forced out for mishandling funds during the 9/11 crisis
She served on the board of the Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, a lobby ground funded by Philip Morris while claiming to be opposed to smoking.
In 2008 she accepted Person of the Year award Vaccine Cause of Autism group for her endorsement of the complete disproven and rejected theory that Vaccinations cause autism /
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/31/eveningnews/main517045.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/23/magazine/who-brought-bernadine-healy-down.html?pagewanted=all
http://tobaccodocuments.org/pm/2505646347-6368.html?zoom=750&ocr_position=above_foramatted&start_page=21
Letting the Red Cross use diseased blood products, failing in efforts at 9/11, a cardiologist working for a cigarette company’s lobby firm and pushing a false claim that has lead to untold number of children not receiving the vaccinations needed to protect them from killing communicable diseases.

But, what does all that have to do with stats? Other than she's helped make some (haha)

CenterBHSFan;388853 wrote:But, what does all that have to do with stats? Other than she's helped make some (haha)

if Goebbels gives you statistics you would and should question them. Given the course of Ms. Healey career in the last decade incompetence and misuse of funds at the Red Cross, sell out to the cigarette industry, endorsement of a criminally irresponsible theory, what she says should be taken with a grain of salt.

CenterBHSFan;388807 wrote:Fox,

I think it's sort of ironic on how, over time, we've basically come to the same conclusion.

I was born and raised in a democrat supporting family. In my late teens and early 20's (pardon the cliche's here, but it's true) I was about as liberal as any liberal poster on here could be. Turns out, much like you, over time I really took notice on what was going on in my chosen party and it didn't sit well with me.
That is not to say, that I'm wanting to become a raging republican, because I don't. I have thought about it a time or two, admittedly. But, I just can't seem to bring myself to do it. I still vote democratic but I also vote republican.

Whereas you sound like you started off with republican views and maybe are in the process of changing your ideology(?)

At any rate, I think it's clear that we've both reach an anathema to political parties, eh?

I also agree with this.

I'm frustrated beyond belief every time that I go to the polls and have to vote for someone that I disagree with strongly on multiple issues just because I think the other candidate is wrong on one or two more issues.

isadore;388632 wrote:while far from perfect we have some filters as to hiring at federal level, for the large majority of workers there is civil service and for those in the highest level of appointed jobs, they must be confirmed by a majority vote of the Senate.

Do you think state governments do not have similar filters when it comes to hiring? Same goes for the private sector. In my business we have processes in place to filter our potential hires to check against any kind of bias or favoritism.

isadore;388632 wrote:On the other hand the place where we find cronyism and nepotism at a level far above those found in even local and state government is private industry. Cronyism forces half of U.S managers to hire someone they don't want. The research by website HR.BLR.com found cronyism was the common reason why people were forced to hire someone.

Your link only proves cronyism exists in the private sector as well. It by no means proves it is at a level far above that of government, as you have falsely stated. You will find no such conclusive proof. Cronyism is a human condition. It exists in all institutions humans create. Again you fail to address my point that cronyism has the most potential to harm the greatest number of people when its influence is over the greatest number of people and possesses the greatest amount of power.

isadore;388632 wrote:Lets cut down cronyism in the health industry with the single payer system, rah, rah, rah!

Do you believe cronyism does not exist in the US military?
How about the CIA?
How about the FBI?
How about the FDA?
How about the EPA?

I could go on and on with any federal, state, local, or private enterprise. You can't conclusively prove that cronyism exists to greater or lesser degree in any of these human institutions.

You yourself have claimed that it exists to a high degree at the highest level of the federal government by claiming the chief executive of the federal government, George Bush, appointed such nefarious cronies to federal power over all 300 plus million Americans. Name one other institution in this nation that has the ability to appoint their "cronies" to positions of such great power.

All politics is is a fight between two sides. Nobody wants to work together to fix the problems within America.

It's hilarious to see guys who are republicans bash ANY move Obama makes, whether it be good or bad.

Same with the Dems while Bush was president.

GANG WARS.

Continue on.

hoops23;389062 wrote:GANG WARS.

Continue on.

No different than the wolf-pack attacks we see on the SB side, eh? lol

majorspark;389032 wrote:Do you think state governments do not have similar filters when it comes to hiring? Same goes for the private sector. In my business we have processes in place to filter our potential hires to check against any kind of bias or favoritism.



Your link only proves cronyism exists in the private sector as well. It by no means proves it is at a level far above that of government, as you have falsely stated. You will find no such conclusive proof. Cronyism is a human condition. It exists in all institutions humans create. Again you fail to address my point that cronyism has the most potential to harm the greatest number of people when its influence is over the greatest number of people and possesses the greatest amount of power.



Do you believe cronyism does not exist in the US military?
How about the CIA?
How about the FBI?
How about the FDA?
How about the EPA?

I could go on and on with any federal, state, local, or private enterprise. You can't conclusively prove that cronyism exists to greater or lesser degree in any of these human institutions.

You yourself have claimed that it exists to a high degree at the highest level of the federal government by claiming the chief executive of the federal government, George Bush, appointed such nefarious cronies to federal power over all 300 plus million Americans. Name one other institution in this nation that has the ability to appoint their "cronies" to positions of such great power.

No what we show is not that cronyism is occassionally present in private sector hiring, but that it is ubiquitous as the poll in the article shows. What is present in the CIA, FBI, FDA and the EPA is civil service which covers the large majority of federal employees and which is used to a descending degree by state and local goverments. What also exists on the Federal Level is the need for Senatorial confirmation for the top federal jobs. What Bush had was a complaisant Republican majority in the Senate through the first 6 years of his Presidency that would accept his unqualified cronys for government employment and even that group of lapdogs choked on putting Harriet Miers on the Supreme Court.

Strapping Young Lad;387460 wrote:Yes I too am tired of the President of the U.S. of Freaking A. sounding like a buffoon. We need someone eloquent like dubbya in there. IMO, Obama gives the world the impresssion that all Americans are dumb jackasses.

nah bush beat him to that