The Pak/Afghan debaucle rambles on in year nine and nothing is being accomplished.

The surge...the COIN operation...all for naught as more and more of our recent high school grads continue to fight in a Vietnam type operation.

Maybe people should listen to what what 5 star general Ike said about war...

"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity".
Dwight D. Eisenhower

And this....

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

The US now have over 42000 vets physically injured for life fighting them "over there instead of over here". Funny how the number of terrorism attacks has increased both here in America and globally as well since the US embarked on operation spread democracy.

The 42.000 injured soldiers does not include the number of soldiers mentally ruined for life as well. Recent estimates show that those seeking help for PTSD is even higher than 42K (links available upon request).

But Obama continues to bow to the generals in some feeble attempt to appease the war monger crowd....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/nobody-is-winning-admits-mcchrystal-1974697.html

But, Dwight did send more into Lebanon, had the Iran coup, took over Vietnam from the French, and threatened to use nuclear weapons on numerous occasions. So, he wasn't a saint. But, given the Cold War, he did what he thought was right. Same goes here.

Sure, Afghanistan and Pakistan are a mess, but what is the alternative? What is the policy option you, or others would prescribe? Just leave? What happens then? What happens if that does not lead to peace, but instead leads to a repeat of the 1990s with Afghanistan, civil war with the radical Taliban in control again?

I hate being there, but honestly, we have no choice. We have to slug it out. It takes time, but honestly, I think it is better than the alternative-a Taliban in control of Afghanistan, threatening nuclear Pakistan, and America less safe.

To the mods...please fix the butcher job I did in spelling of General McChrystal's name in the header. Thanks.

ptown_trojans_1 wrote: Sure, Afghanistan and Pakistan are a mess, but what is the alternative? What is the policy option you, or others would prescribe? Just leave? What happens then? What happens if that does not lead to peace, but instead leads to a repeat of the 1990s with Afghanistan, civil war with the radical Taliban in control again?

Did we not "just leave" in Vietnam? Well? Yes we should just leave. The benefits of leaving far exceed the risks in staying. What exactly is being accomplished here?

The retaliation for 9-11 was more than justified. What is not justifying is sating the the lust of American hubris...that we can rule the world from 5000 miles away. Well we can't. Recently, civil militarism has escalated in Thailand....and again in Darfur....and Iraq has had the bloodiest 2 weeks since 2007. Why not invade Sudan? How about Thailand?

Remember...our country is flipping broke...discussion for a different thread.

I hate being there, but honestly, we have no choice. We have to slug it out. It takes time, but honestly, I think it is better than the alternative-a Taliban in control of Afghanistan, threatening nuclear Pakistan, and America less safe.

The Taliban or a government similar to the Taliban will gain power whether we leave today...or a hundred years from now. PTowne...it was you that were promoting the COIN operation as the panacea. I told you that the US has been using COIN for the duration over there. It was simply not termed "COIN".

The US is sending our troops into a needless slaughter....to satisfy the macho of the military money making operatives. All under the guise of keeping Americans safe. The latest intel info shows that the recent attempt to blow up Americans in Times Square is a direct retalliation for the drone strikes killing innocent Pakistanis. You want to reduce terrorism? Then get the hell out their homelands.

It is time to leave (except for our intelligence, spies, etc.) The troops could better serve our country on the US southern border.

^^^That.

Footwedge wrote: The retaliation for 9-11 was more than justified.

Agreed. The U.S. should have went in after 9/11, got it done, and then come back home to deal with our own issues (the border). The middle east fighting is not our problem. If they want to kill each other so be it. We can't play the World police. Our government is getting Americans killed daily, and for what? It is nice to feel bad for the people living in these countries and want to help, but getting our own killed is not the way to do it.

Al Bundy wrote: It is time to leave (except for our intelligence, spies, etc.) The troops could better serve our country on the US southen border.

you cant fight a war that way.

iclfan2 wrote:

Footwedge wrote: The retaliation for 9-11 was more than justified.

Agreed. The U.S. should have went in after 9/11, got it done, and then come back home to deal with our own issues (the border). The middle east fighting is not our problem. If they want to kill each other so be it. We can't play the World police. Our government is getting Americans killed daily, and for what? It is nice to feel bad for the people living in these countries and want to help, but getting our own killed is not the way to do it.

we are getting it done. this isnt your grandpa's war with enemy lines and clearly defined bad guys in uniform.

Al Bundy wrote: It is time to leave (except for our intelligence, spies, etc.) The troops could better serve our country on the US southen border.

I agree with the leave part.

The US is too stupid along with the majority of its population.

Wait to hear how Afghanistan with its massive technology is going threaten the USA and we must crush them.... it is coming....

The Russians at least figured it out.... the USA far too stupid to get it.

Can't wait to post here when we eventually pull out and all is the same in Afghanistan except the USA wasted TRILLIONS of dollars..

Well some corporations and politicians got very wealthy LMAO.

I don't mean getting it done, as in staying there for years. I mean getting it done as in strategically bombing Taliban training camps, etc. Not putting land troops in harms way. I have a problem with our people coming home in coffins for no reason.

iclfan2 wrote: I don't mean getting it done, as in staying there for years. I mean getting it done as in strategically bombing Taliban training camps, etc. Not putting land troops in harms way. I have a problem with our people coming home in coffins for no reason.

cant win a war that way. you always need boots on the ground. gotta be able to find the training camps before you can bomb them.

Glory Days wrote:

Al Bundy wrote: It is time to leave (except for our intelligence, spies, etc.) The troops could better serve our country on the US southen border.

you cant fight a war that way.

iclfan2 wrote:

Footwedge wrote: The retaliation for 9-11 was more than justified.

Agreed. The U.S. should have went in after 9/11, got it done, and then come back home to deal with our own issues (the border). The middle east fighting is not our problem. If they want to kill each other so be it. We can't play the World police. Our government is getting Americans killed daily, and for what? It is nice to feel bad for the people living in these countries and want to help, but getting our own killed is not the way to do it.

we are getting it done. this isnt your grandpa's war with enemy lines and clearly defined bad guys in uniform.

On your first point, there is no need to continue to fight the war in any way. Taliban are out of power. Continue strategically bombing AQ training camps, but we don't need soldiers on the ground anymore.

On your second point, if a general is saying no one is winning the war, how exactly are we getting it done? How has it taken nearly a decade? I think this is just a sequel to the first time a superpower invaded Afghanistan (Soviet Union). We didn't learn anything from that apparently, the US military industrial complex is too arrogant.

Glory Days wrote:

iclfan2 wrote: I don't mean getting it done, as in staying there for years. I mean getting it done as in strategically bombing Taliban training camps, etc. Not putting land troops in harms way. I have a problem with our people coming home in coffins for no reason.

cant win a war that way. you always need boots on the ground. gotta be able to find the training camps before you can bomb them.

You can find training camps without boots on the ground. Spy planes, satellite images, etc. No need for boots on the ground at all. It can all be achieved through air power.

I was always thought we were justified in fighting in Afghanistan. Originally we were, but it is time to come home. Air support can be involved still, but we are not progressing militarily there anymore and the government is getting less and less friendly with the US. The citizens of the country are liking us less as well IMO.

Anyone who believes we are achieving anything further in Afghanistan has been brainwashed by the propoganda of the military industrial complex/war machine.

Glory Days wrote:

Al Bundy wrote: It is time to leave (except for our intelligence, spies, etc.) The troops could better serve our country on the US southen border.

you cant fight a war that way.

iclfan2 wrote:

Footwedge wrote: The retaliation for 9-11 was more than justified.

Agreed. The U.S. should have went in after 9/11, got it done, and then come back home to deal with our own issues (the border). The middle east fighting is not our problem. If they want to kill each other so be it. We can't play the World police. Our government is getting Americans killed daily, and for what? It is nice to feel bad for the people living in these countries and want to help, but getting our own killed is not the way to do it.

we are getting it done. this isnt your grandpa's war with enemy lines and clearly defined bad guys in uniform.

Not only are we not winning. We can't win the war. You can't force a type of government and lifestyle on people if they don't want it from within. Are we going to stay there forever to try to force these things upon them? We should still do air attacks on training camps if we have intelligence that tells us that they are a threat to the US, but we are trying to go far beyond just defending our country.

they'll just hide in the caves until we are done bombing. you cant win a war with airpower alone. they arent stupid, training camps from pre 9-11 dont exist anymore, they know how to blend in and be unseen from the air.

dwccrew wrote: Anyone who believes we are achieving anything further in Afghanistan has been brainwashed by the propoganda of the military industrial complex/war machine.

anyone who believes we are not achieving anything in afghanistan has been brainwashed by the anti war propaganda.

dwccrew wrote: Anyone who believes we are achieving anything further in Afghanistan has been brainwashed by the propoganda of the military industrial complex/war machine.

Game...set...match....

And this coming from the brave Mr. DDCrew...who donned the American uniform to help America atone for the massacre on our soil on September 11, 2001.

And although I disagree with Glory Days on his take here...he is also a very brave American for doing the same.

Glory Days wrote:

anyone who believes we are not achieving anything in afghanistan has been brainwashed by the anti war propaganda.

yeah that McChrystal....just a brainwashed, pansyassed liberal.

one operation did not have the success it hoped, the war is not lost.

The war isn't worth it. America is no more safe with the current situation in Afghanistan than we were with the Taliban in control. We won't be more safe until we get the hell out of their countries.

You want less terrorism, give them no means to recruit. Pretty hard to convince people that we are the infidels invading their home/holy lands if we aren't there.

I Wear Pants wrote: The war isn't worth it. America is no more safe with the current situation in Afghanistan than we were with the Taliban in control. We won't be more safe until we get the hell out of their countries.

You want less terrorism, give them no means to recruit. Pretty hard to convince people that we are the infidels invading their home/holy lands if we aren't there.

So, people think that is we leave, the Taliban and al Qaeda will just give up their arms against the U.S.? What are you basing this on? Do you know that they will in fact leave us alone if we withdraw? Have you heard that they will give up the fight against the U.S. if we withdraw?

Do people also think that the Taliban will not stop until the Afghan government is gone? Or that the Pakistani Talibans will stop?

I think those views are a little naive. It is better to try and stop them in military fights and build up the humanitarian side than lay back and go on faith that al Qaeda won't try attack us again.

Drones and intelligence are not a strategy, just a tactic. The 90s showed us that we need forces on the ground to effectively limit and stop the Taliban. Drones, while awesome, are only part of the arsenal. We need to maintain boots on the ground.

It is a long, hard war, that will take many years to accomplish. I've been saying this for years. COIN takes time, many years, and there will be setbacks.

Finally, if we want less terrorists, we kill the top level guys, and provide humanitarian and basic needs to the people on the ground. Give them an option, the U.S. provided option or the Taliban. If the U.S. can provide a better deal, then recruitment goes down. The problem is, that takes time.

Were we in their countries when we were attacked on 9/11???

Were we in their countries when they bombed the USS Kohl?? How about the Baracks?? What about the 1st attempt on the Trade Centers.....were we in their countries then??

Mr. 300 wrote: Were we in their countries when they bombed the USS Kohl?? How about the Baracks?? What about the 1st attempt on the Trade Centers.....were we in their countries then??

Yup and yup and yup.

Ptown, aren't you being a little naive that we could ever stop terrorism, or hatred for the US? Al Quida will always be there, whether we are there or not.

Footwedge wrote:

Mr. 300 wrote: Were we in their countries when they bombed the USS Kohl?? How about the Baracks?? What about the 1st attempt on the Trade Centers.....were we in their countries then??

Yup and yup and yup.

Where were the boots on the ground, and what missions were we killing innocent people in??

Footwedge wrote:

Mr. 300 wrote: Were we in their countries when they bombed the USS Kohl?? How about the Baracks?? What about the 1st attempt on the Trade Centers.....were we in their countries then??

Yup and yup and yup.

The Cole? As in Yemen? Not for the Cole, but we are helping Yemen in containing their radical elements in their country now.

The barracks? As in Lebanon in 82 or Khobar is 95? We are in neither country now.

1st attempt in the WTC, as far as I know we captured the guys responsible, save OBL, and are in Afghanistan now.