buckeyefalls wrote:Not trying to prove him wrong, but rather, prove to him how God is right in my life.

idk...why is it necessary to prove that to anyone in the first place, you know?

(Buckeyefalls, the following is not directed at you, and is a separate rant.)

I love my faith/religion, but I struggle with the religious, for a number of reasons. Chief among them is that I'm not sure that I know too many Christians/Muslims/etc. who are about enhancing their own personal relationship with God, as much as they are about putting their religious footprints on the lives of others, and not in the best way. This is fresh annoyance for me, as I was just in a situation (helping out at a church), and I heard a woman talking about how some girl that she was "mentoring" had started to date a non-Christian, and the Bible says that you shouldn't do that, so she had to find some way to talk this girl out of that. Upon me asking if the guy she was dating was a good person, that treated this girl with respect, the answer I received was, "I don't know...I guess so."

It's not just Christianity, it's Islam, it's everywhere. I'm all for faith. And I'm all for religion. But I'm also all for agendaless relationships/friendships/community efforts. And as I grow older, I see religion holding that back more than advancing it.

Not a good theory from a scientific point of view? Hmm....let's see, I believe God created the earth and there are more reasons to believe a higher being created it and maintained it then you have proof that it just magically went "poof" into being. That takes more faith to believe than accepting a Creator made it. We have failed to prove it? How so? Look at how every cell in your body works together to make YOU. That is an accident? A magical poof? That sounds more like this mythology and ancient superstition that you mention than accepting a higher being.

Heck, there are historical evidences that are non-Biblical, men who hated Jesus who wrote about Him, who witnessed Him with their own eyes.

Your type ALWAYS says it is our responsibility to prove it, but it isn't. It is also your responsibility to prove that God and Creation don't exist. Guess what? It is more difficult to prove that He doesn't exist (look at life around you) then it is to prove that He does exist. My job is easy. Yours is difficult, but whatever the case, neither side (mine or yours) can put 100% of the case on the other's table. We are both responsible.

So, with that, YOU made the first post that maybe a clergy person needs to meet with you. Don't make that type of statement if you aren't willing to meet. I'm not out for your head or anyone's; however, if you are as "bold" as you pretend you are, let's meet.

I have nothing to fear. I am secure in my faith. My thinking is that you do have something to fear, or you wouldn't be avoiding the invitation that YOU originally made.

upper90, Not trying to be rude either, but have you heard of the Great Commission? It is our responsibility as Christians to share the Good News! Heard of the Scripture to not let your light hide? But to shine it forth?

Christians aren't called to be quiet and sit in their closets! We are called to "come out of our closets" (sorry fairwood, thought you'd like that) and spread the news.

Upper90 wrote:

buckeyefalls wrote:Not trying to prove him wrong, but rather, prove to him how God is right in my life.

idk...why is it necessary to prove that to anyone in the first place, you know?

(Buckeyefalls, the following is not directed at you, and is a separate rant.)

I love my faith/religion, but I struggle with the religious, for a number of reasons. Chief among them is that I'm not sure that I know too many Christians/Muslims/etc. who are about enhancing their own personal relationship with God, as much as they are about putting their religious footprints on the lives of others, and not in the best way. This is fresh annoyance for me, as I was just in a situation (helping out at a church), and I heard a woman talking about how some girl that she was "mentoring" had started to date a non-Christian, and the Bible says that you shouldn't do that, so she had to find some way to talk this girl out of that. Upon me asking if the guy she was dating was a good person, that treated this girl with respect, the answer I received was, "I don't know...I guess so."

It's not just Christianity, it's Islam, it's everywhere. I'm all for faith. And I'm all for religion. But I'm also all for agendaless relationships/friendships/community efforts. And as I grow older, I see religion holding that back more than advancing it.

Upper90 wrote: ...

idk...why is it necessary to prove that to anyone in the first place, you know?
...

I don't know why you may have thought is was necessary. I saw the post more as a willingness to offer his opinion on why God was right in his life just as others have offered why the don't accept such a theology. I personally never saw necessity as the driving motivation.

buckeyefalls wrote: upper90, Not trying to be rude either, but have you heard of the Great Commission? It is our responsibility as Christians to share the Good News! Heard of the Scripture to not let your light hide? But to shine it forth?

Christians aren't called to be quiet and sit in their closets! We are called to "come out of our closets" (sorry fairwood, thought you'd like that) and spread the news.

Agree, but why are you "shedding your light." Is it TRULY to preach Christ? Do you plant the seed and let God do the rest of the work, or do you plant the seed and get pissed at it b/c it doesn't grow? You can't flood the planted seed and over fertilize. You have to just do what is asked and pray that God will do the rest.

I'm with upper90. WAY too many people have personal agendas. The ones that are adamant about NOT are probably the ones that do.

buckeyefalls wrote: upper90, Not trying to be rude either, but have you heard of the Great Commission? It is our responsibility as Christians to share the Good News! Heard of the Scripture to not let your light hide? But to shine it forth?

Christians aren't called to be quiet and sit in their closets! We are called to "come out of our closets" (sorry fairwood, thought you'd like that) and spread the news.

Though this wasn't directed at me, it goes to my original point to you. My understanding of this is that the intent of spreading the word is to help bring people to God.

It isn't just to boast about yourself or the fact that you have been saved. It isn't intended as a means to chastize, mock, or judge others. Am I wrong? Unfortunately, that is how it comes off too many times and that turns people away. If you are driving people further from God with a lack of tact, are you really serving His purpose or merely playing a role (to borrow your words)?

You offered to meet Fairwood and share your experiences. Thats a good step. But you peppered what may have been a sincere interest with these messages:

buckeyefalls wrote: They are right, you act as if you KNOW everything there is to need to know therefore you MUST be God yourself.

Or basically, you think you know everything and you don't, but I do and I'll set you straight.

buckeyefalls wrote:caution: You may be tempted to believe that a higher being exists after you hear my testimony and the testimony of many other Christians.

Sounds to me more like, "I don't have to listen to you, but after you hear me tell you the same exact thing you've already said carries no weight to you, you'll come to find that I'm right."

buckeyefalls wrote:***also, can't believe you were a devout Christian. You may have been a devote member of a church, played the role of Christian, etc. but devout Christians don't abandon ship and completely denounce everything they say they once believed in.

Might as well have said, "Not only are you wrong in your beliefs, but you are a liar and have never been one of us because one of us would never make a mistake like the one you've made. You were always a fake in addition to being wrong."

buckeyefalls wrote: So, with that, YOU made the first post that maybe a clergy person needs to meet with you. Don't make that type of statement if you aren't willing to meet. I'm not out for your head or anyone's; however, if you are as "bold" as you pretend you are, let's meet.

I have nothing to fear. I am secure in my faith. My thinking is that you do have something to fear, or you wouldn't be avoiding the invitation that YOU originally made.

And then you call him a coward a few times to boot. Again with the I'm-this-you're-that stuff.

Have you stopped to think that he isn't really afraid of hearing what you have to say, as much as it is that everything you've said up to this point just seems to be coming from an arrogant asshole?

People can't lead people to God. People can be used by God as an avenue.

When people do "try" and carry out the great commission we are not perfect in doing so. We can and often times do so in a faulty way. We are not perfect in our attempts. We sometimes fail to see our own arrogance and that we can be an asshole. We are not sin free...only forgiven.

It is not acceptable that we may come across as arrogant but it is also not surprising. It is something that we should always be working to eliminate.

I suppose I don't see the point to attempt proving this to anyone, I suppose. I understand the spreading of how God is working in ones life, however, for me (and again, I'm different in my faith, I suppose), I would simply not be interested in sharing this with someone who I knew didn't share my faith, or didn't believe in God.

Again, I love religion, but for me, it's just personal. I rarely discuss it, and I don't particularly use it to further anything. If someone asks me about my religion, I'll inform them, and that's generally it. This isn't to say that everyone who practices anything, and spreads the word about it are people with ill intentions, and I didn't aim for it to come across that way. I just think I've become a bit cynical spending far too much time around Mosques, and Churches, and hearing the discussions of "Faith" that go on, and realizing how far away from my mindset that is. It doesn't make me love the religion less, it just makes me feel separated from (some of) those people practicing the religion, if that makes sense.

And, to be honest, I'm fine with that, I've never needed a Church, or a gathering of any sort to grow my relationship with God.

Often times in attempting to "prove" to another one can further validate their own beliefs or eliminate some possible concerns and waivering they might themselves be experiencing. There's a learning potential personal gain in clarification to another.

I see ALL religious practices, regardless of religion, as a matter of interpretation. Each religion will tell you that you have to act in a certain way b/c someone along the way had interpreted it that way. Read the Bible and see what God is trying to tell YOU, and interpret it yourself. If you want spiritual guidance, then seek someone you trust, and someone whom you can trust to question, and accept questions.

buckeyefalls wrote: Not a good theory from a scientific point of view? Hmm....let's see, I believe God created the earth and there are more reasons to believe a higher being created it and maintained it then you have proof that it just magically went "poof" into being. That takes more faith to believe than accepting a Creator made it. We have failed to prove it? How so? Look at how every cell in your body works together to make YOU. That is an accident? A magical poof? That sounds more like this mythology and ancient superstition that you mention than accepting a higher being.

A good theory is observable or testable. The theory of God is neither. That's why it is not a good theory.

Heck, there are historical evidences that are non-Biblical, men who hated Jesus who wrote about Him, who witnessed Him with their own eyes.

Your type ALWAYS says it is our responsibility to prove it, but it isn't. It is also your responsibility to prove that God and Creation don't exist. Guess what? It is more difficult to prove that He doesn't exist (look at life around you) then it is to prove that He does exist. My job is easy. Yours is difficult, but whatever the case, neither side (mine or yours) can put 100% of the case on the other's table. We are both responsible.

This proves you know nothing about science. It is ALWAYS the obligation of the person who owns the theory to offer proof. Technically speaking, you can never prove a theory in science, but you at least have to offer evidence that fails to disprove. You have offered nothing. Just because an ancient book says something does not make it so. If you can show me any kind of real proof, I will listen.

So, with that, YOU made the first post that maybe a clergy person needs to meet with you. Don't make that type of statement if you aren't willing to meet. I'm not out for your head or anyone's; however, if you are as "bold" as you pretend you are, let's meet.

I live in Seattle. If you want to fly out here to meet with me, I will gladly meet with you.

I have nothing to fear. I am secure in my faith. My thinking is that you do have something to fear, or you wouldn't be avoiding the invitation that YOU originally made.

As I said, I will meet with anyone who want to come here to talk to me. I have nothing to fear.

Without trying to sound "arrogant" or cocky, I just don't like that last line that you don't need a church....No, one doesn't need a church to develop a relationship with God; however, Scripture does teach that you aren't supposed to neglect assemly together. This is because the church needs YOU to be a part of the body of Christ. We are all one and we all need each other.

As for the other responses offered, I see your point. Not trying to be a jerk or an "ass hole" as you state, but you can see our frustration with people who claim they know everything and that means there is NO god. They have that right to believe, but if they have the right to state their beliefs, Christians do as well.

Maybe I sounded too "pushy" sorry!

Upper90 wrote: I suppose I don't see the point to attempt proving this to anyone, I suppose. I understand the spreading of how God is working in ones life, however, for me (and again, I'm different in my faith, I suppose), I would simply not be interested in sharing this with someone who I knew didn't share my faith, or didn't believe in God.

Again, I love religion, but for me, it's just personal. I rarely discuss it, and I don't particularly use it to further anything. If someone asks me about my religion, I'll inform them, and that's generally it. This isn't to say that everyone who practices anything, and spreads the word about it are people with ill intentions, and I didn't aim for it to come across that way. I just think I've become a bit cynical spending far too much time around Mosques, and Churches, and hearing the discussions of "Faith" that go on, and realizing how far away from my mindset that is. It doesn't make me love the religion less, it just makes me feel separated from (some of) those people practicing the religion, if that makes sense.

And, to be honest, I'm fine with that, I've never needed a Church, or a gathering of any sort to grow my relationship with God.

Fairwood,

Deal. If I'm ever out your way, let's meet for some of that coffee Seattle is always famous for (smile).

You offer your "theory" as well; therefore, if a theory must be proven by the person who offered it, then why don't you have to prove yours either? - It's a lame response if you ask me. I can offer many proofs that God exists, but every time I would, you would shoot it down but offer no basis for it except "that's made up" or "mythology."

You stated yourself that a "good theory is observable or testable." Wow! Thanks. You put the ball in my court:

My theory is this:

God exists:

Observations: Life, the human body, creation, the sunrise, the sunset, how gravity works, etc. not by accident as many think. My changed life, changed lives of millions throughout the centuries, and finally....an empty grave.

Tests: Provide a test. God has always provided for me in my life. Scripture teaches not to put the Lord your God to the test, but every time anyone ever has, God has always answered and NEVER disappointed.

(Please, I hope you understand, while my past posts may have seemed arrogant or defensive, well, they were defensive (smile), the tone I am writing you is peaceful). I am trying to engage in honest, open dialogue.

I should have no intention to just sit here and say, "you are wrong," "your theory is wrong," "prove to me that God doesn't exist." No, I'm giving you examples of observations I have witnessed.

Now, please, in return, give me examples of how you think he doesn't exist.

^^^^ You still miss the point. I would not have said anything about God if people like you hadn't brought it up first. Therefore it is your theory and your obligation to show evidence.

The fact that there is a sunrise and sunset is not proof of the existence of God. You are sounding more like a Sunday School teacher than a scientist.

Empiricism is overrated.

I was never raised under any religion. I went to some church activities with friends when I was in grade school but never really thought too much of it.

I've always paid little attention to religion and all that it stands for most of my life until the last few years. It's to the point where I've learned that religion of all types has held society back by centuries.

Can you imagine where we would be as human beings if there wasn't constant war over religion? How advanced would we be if we didn't sit around praying for someone to make things better when we can get off our asses and do it ourselves? I talked to a lady the other day who had lost her job and I asked her if she had found anything yet. She told me that she wasn't even looking. She was praying for god to take care of it. Unbelievable.

Religion, of every variety, was created to control society with fear of what might happen if they don't follow the rules. It is also used as a crutch for people that are afraid, or rather; unwilling, to do things for themselves. Throw in 20% of everyone's net earnings, and you have the makings of one hell of a business model.

One of the biggest arguments about religion isn't really worth arguing.

"You claim there is no proof of god. Can you prove there isn't a god?"

The answer is no. No one can. Something can only exist if it has been proven to exist. If this weren't true, every belief would have a shred of truth. The wacky beliefs of Scientology, according to christians, would be just as likely to be true as a man in the sky.


A good quote from Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Again, this is my personal faith/belief....I'm not sure that a Church...ANY Church, needs ME. I think Church is great for people, I won't ever knock it. But, it's not for me. The more time I spend in Churches, or any houses of worship in general, I think the harder time I have with my own faith, and as I've stated, I just don't always enjoy interaction with a religious assembly. The conversation, the mindset, the direction....tends to make me uneasy. Understanding that this is on me...I just avoid that.

I suppose I know what I believe. I don't know if it's right, nor do I care if it's right. I don't practice my faith to be right. Therefore, when someone argues, or even believes otherwise (as I'd say the majority of my friends do), I don't really breach the argument with them. I'm not interested in debating someone about what they DON'T believe, as they would be uninterested in debating with me about what I DO believe. Especially when there's likely a great number of other things that we see eye to eye on.

HitsRus wrote: Empiricism is overrated.

Not really.

thesystem wins,

You wrote, can you prove that there is no god? then you answered it yourself. no.

However, many in history can claim that Jesus Christ was man and walked the earth. He claimed to be God. He performed miracles (not magic tricks). If historians (not Biblical authors) are right that a man, named Jesus, walked on the earth and that same man claimed to be God, then let me ask my friend? Where is his body? Find me the tomb.



As for Epicurus, I can find just as many quotes from historians that state they believe God is real.

And, as for this great quote of his that you shared, God coulda, shoulda, woulda done a lot of things, but that's not the way he works my friend.


FAIRWOOD - Why should I have to answer from a scientists point of view? I am not a scientist; however, I know many scientists who side with Christianity as well. Sure, there are many who don't, but I find it ironic, that if your point is that scientists have a view that there is no God, then why are there many out there who believe He exists?

thesystem wrote: I was never raised under any religion. I went to some church activities with friends when I was in grade school but never really thought too much of it.

I've always paid little attention to religion and all that it stands for most of my life until the last few years. It's to the point where I've learned that religion of all types has held society back by centuries.

Can you imagine where we would be as human beings if there wasn't constant war over religion? How advanced would we be if we didn't sit around praying for someone to make things better when we can get off our asses and do it ourselves? I talked to a lady the other day who had lost her job and I asked her if she had found anything yet. She told me that she wasn't even looking. She was praying for god to take care of it. Unbelievable.

Religion, of every variety, was created to control society with fear of what might happen if they don't follow the rules. It is also used as a crutch for people that are afraid, or rather; unwilling, to do things for themselves. Throw in 20% of everyone's net earnings, and you have the makings of one hell of a business model.

One of the biggest arguments about religion isn't really worth arguing.

"You claim there is no proof of god. Can you prove there isn't a god?"

The answer is no. No one can. Something can only exist if it has been proven to exist. If this weren't true, every belief would have a shred of truth. The wacky beliefs of Scientology, according to christians, would be just as likely to be true as a man in the sky.


A good quote from Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

buckeyefalls wrote: thesystem wins,

You wrote, can you prove that there is no god? then you answered it yourself. no.

However, many in history can claim that Jesus Christ was man and walked the earth. He claimed to be God. He performed miracles (not magic tricks). If historians (not Biblical authors) are right that a man, named Jesus, walked on the earth and that same man claimed to be God, then let me ask my friend? Where is his body? Find me the tomb.

They can't even find Jimmy Hoffa. How in hell are they going to find Jesus?

FairwoodKing wrote: They can't even find Jimmy Hoffa. How in hell are they going to find Jesus?

Are you saying Jesus is buried under a football field?

Jesus may be buried under a football field, but I always thought of him more of a baseball fan. You know, He created the earth during while playing baseball.

"In the Big Inning" God created the heavens and the earth.

buckeyefalls,

Jesus never claimed to be god. He was the self claimed son of god. Born from a virgin mother who somehow got knocked up by a big man in the sky that none had or have seen since.

I'm not sure if you are aware of how illiterate people were of that time or not, but I'm assuming you would have some idea. They were basically slightly more sophisticated than apes given the fact that they figured out how to walk upright, build a hut and speak instead of grunt. You or I could have told these people anything we wanted and it would have been believable.

Now throw in the fact that there was almost no form of communication of the time. Information was passed from village to village by tall tales about all sorts of stuff. Again, leading to the illiterate masses in awe that the self proclaimed son of god was on earth.

Nobody knows who wrote the bible. If it were his posse, it's going to be full of all kinds of fluff to sell it to the people. In fact, I don't think the bible was originally written until hundreds of years later. Then a 'revised' version came out that was love and doves compared to the original which was just filled with a lot of recommendations of killing, animosity towards women, and so on.

I mean, the fact that the 'story' of christianity, son of a god, healing the sick, the sacrifice, the resurrection, and so on has been told before by many other religions hundreds of years or more before Jesus doesn't throw up a red flag with you? lol. They basically copied stories from a variety of other religions and made their own 'god'.

I Wear Pants wrote:

HitsRus wrote: Empiricism is overrated.

Not really.

Actually it is. Kant pretty well demolished it as a stand alone reasoning philosophy in the 18th century.

thesystem wrote: buckeyefalls,

Jesus never claimed to be god. He was the self claimed son of god. Born from a virgin mother who somehow got knocked up by a big man in the sky that none had or have seen since.

I'm not sure if you are aware of how illiterate people were of that time or not, but I'm assuming you would have some idea. They were basically slightly more sophisticated than apes given the fact that they figured out how to walk upright, build a hut and speak instead of grunt. You or I could have told these people anything we wanted and it would have been believable.

Now throw in the fact that there was almost no form of communication of the time. Information was passed from village to village by tall tales about all sorts of stuff. Again, leading to the illiterate masses in awe that the self proclaimed son of god was on earth.

Nobody knows who wrote the bible. If it were his posse, it's going to be full of all kinds of fluff to sell it to the people. In fact, I don't think the bible was originally written until hundreds of years later. Then a 'revised' version came out that was love and doves compared to the original which was just filled with a lot of recommendations of killing, animosity towards women, and so on.

I mean, the fact that the 'story' of christianity, son of a god, healing the sick, the sacrifice, the resurrection, and so on has been told before by many other religions hundreds of years or more before Jesus doesn't throw up a red flag with you? lol. They basically copied stories from a variety of other religions and made their own 'god'.

That's absolutely ridiculous, and it's quite apparent that you've managed to seed-peck from a Philosophy 101 class.

For one thing, Jewish scholars translated the entire compiled canon of the Old Testament into Greek (the Septuagint) sometime in the third century BC. And the strict guidelines for what constituted an acceptable copy make the idea of making scores of errors impossible.

For the New Testament, there are preserved fragments of books that date to the beginning of the second century AD, plus a great deal of circumstantial evidence that supports earlier publication dates than that. Regardless, we're not talking about ten generations passing here; we're talking about people who would have been alive for the events described being around when they were written down.

Third, you have no true concept of the historian's methods of assessing the validity of something. Consider:
- Judaism came into creation as a monotheistic religion at the time when all the surrounding dominant civilizations were polytheistic
- The creation stories of all of these religions involved some type of triumph of the existing powers over some type of chaos powers
- There is no evidence that Judaism borrowed any major tenets from other religions; if you want to split hairs over the later adaptations of high places as bastard altars during the time of the kings, have at it
- The Old Testament is loaded with Messianic prophecy. Keep in mind that, even if you were to use the latest possible date for the translation of the Septuagint, it would still predate the events of the New Testament by over 150 years

There's plenty of evidence that suggests that similar stories to that of Christianity were in fact borrowing from that rather than vice versa. The story of Mithra is often used as a parallel, yet Mithra was regarded as a sun god by the Zoroastrians (basically their version of Apollo) who only had these parallel elements after the Romans "discovered" it sometime in the second or third century AD. And since plenty of Romans were trying to fight the spread of Christianity while still honoring their own deities....