[/quote]

I looked and you are correct that Lloyd did not have many top defensive recruits in his later years. As for recruiting top defensive players I will list the 4 and 5 star defensive recruits Carr retained from 2006,2007 and the part 2008 when he was still coach. Jonas Mouton-5 stars, Adam Patterson-4, Marques Slocum-5(no longer with team), Steve Brown-4 Corbrani Mixon-4(no longer with team), Brandon Graham-5, Donovan Warren-5, Michael Williams-4, Brandon Herron-4, Austin Panter-4, James Rogers-4, Ryan Van Bergen-4, J.B. Fitzgerald-4, Mike Martin-4, Marcus Witherspoon-4, Boubarcar Cissoko-5(no longer on team). RR defensive 4 and 5 star recruits-Brandon Smith-4, Wiiliam Campbell-5, Craig Roh-4, Anthony Lacota-4, J.T. Turner-5 and this year so far Josh Furman-4, Cullen Christian-4 and Marvin Robinson-4. Carr had 7 defensive three star recruits from 2006-till he left and RR has retained 17 so far. So Carr had more top recruits but RR has added depth with more 3 stars. Bottom line is there are enough highly touted players on this team to produce alot better than 3-9 and 5-7 period. Blaming Carr is an excuse.
[/quote]

Let's throw the star's out and look at thow these kid's that Carr recruited towards the end panned out

Jonas Mouton- Starter never lived up to potential
Adam Patterson- Complete bust
Slocum- Complete bust
Stevie Brown- Would have been bust had he not been moved to spinner.
Cobrini Mixon- Bust
Brandon Graham- STUD
Donovon Warren- Starter
Michael Williams- Lost starting spot this year to walk on BUST
Brandon Herron- Lost starting spot to true freshman BUST
Austin Panter- bust
James Rogers- bust
Ryan Van Bergen- Solid starter
Boubacar- bust
Marcus Witherspoon- bust

Book still out on Martin and Fitzgerald

Star's are nice thing to look at and go OOOOOWWWW but as you can see 9 of those highly rated players Carr recruited have turned out to be complete and total bust's.

Nice try though to get the blame off Lloyd

rock_knutne wrote:

Pick6 wrote: why dont you 2 go talk about notre dame somewhere and how brian kelly is the next lou holtz or something. Every Ohio State fans knows that part of the reason he chose OSU over teams like Michigan and Oregon is to develop his skills to become a qb in the nfl. He still has 2 years to improve and improved vastly from the beginning of last season to the end. I believe people said the same thing about Vince Young coming out of college..His form is terrible, etc. He hasnt done too bad in the nfl.

by the way..where your drafted really dont mean shit. Tony Romo and Kurt Warner were not drafted and they've easily had better pro careers than Matt Leinart, David Carr, Brady Quinn. All who were drafted high-mid first round.

If Pryor went to OSU to hone his skills for the NFL then he made a terrible mistake, name one former OSU QB who's starting in the NFL right now? His mechanics have not changed one bit, he can't read defenses and his decision making is suspect.

Yeah, draft position isn't everything but first rounders like Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger haven't done too bad. Tell me, exactly what has Vince Young done in the NFL?

Umm, name a QB that starts from ND? Brady Quinn can't even beat out Derek Anderson to start on one of the worst teams of the league.

ND is good at over hyping its athletes, which explains the one bowl win in 20 years against a depleted 6-6 WAC team.

Tinkertrain wrote: Star's are nice thing to look at and go OOOOOWWWW but as you can see 9 of those highly rated players Carr recruited have turned out to be complete and total bust's.

I agree 100%. Stars are great until they get on the field in a college game. There are plenty of examples of kids who weren't highly rated who had pretty good careers. I'll take the opinion of ANY college coach over any of the recruiting services. (Basically if RR, Tressel, etc. think a kid is good enough for a schollie, then that outweighs what any service thinks about them.) I think there are probably more examples of kids that were 4 or 5 stars and never panned out for one reason or another.

Tinkertrain wrote: Nice try though to get the blame off Lloyd

Just curious, in your opinion how many years does RR get before he has to shoulder the blame for the losses? Also, if you got rid of Lloyd because he couldn't take you to the promised land, how many more losses to OSU are acceptable, how soon until he needs to win a big ten title and how soon until he needs to win a national title? (I'm not trying to be a jerk, just curious as to how many years you think it should take him to accomplish each of those.)

Tinkertrain wrote:

I looked and you are correct that Lloyd did not have many top defensive recruits in his later years. As for recruiting top defensive players I will list the 4 and 5 star defensive recruits Carr retained from 2006,2007 and the part 2008 when he was still coach. Jonas Mouton-5 stars, Adam Patterson-4, Marques Slocum-5(no longer with team), Steve Brown-4 Corbrani Mixon-4(no longer with team), Brandon Graham-5, Donovan Warren-5, Michael Williams-4, Brandon Herron-4, Austin Panter-4, James Rogers-4, Ryan Van Bergen-4, J.B. Fitzgerald-4, Mike Martin-4, Marcus Witherspoon-4, Boubarcar Cissoko-5(no longer on team). RR defensive 4 and 5 star recruits-Brandon Smith-4, Wiiliam Campbell-5, Craig Roh-4, Anthony Lacota-4, J.T. Turner-5 and this year so far Josh Furman-4, Cullen Christian-4 and Marvin Robinson-4. Carr had 7 defensive three star recruits from 2006-till he left and RR has retained 17 so far. So Carr had more top recruits but RR has added depth with more 3 stars. Bottom line is there are enough highly touted players on this team to produce alot better than 3-9 and 5-7 period. Blaming Carr is an excuse.
[/quote]

Let's throw the star's out and look at thow these kid's that Carr recruited towards the end panned out

Jonas Mouton- Starter never lived up to potential
Adam Patterson- Complete bust
Slocum- Complete bust
Stevie Brown- Would have been bust had he not been moved to spinner.
Cobrini Mixon- Bust
Brandon Graham- STUD
Donovon Warren- Starter
Michael Williams- Lost starting spot this year to walk on BUST
Brandon Herron- Lost starting spot to true freshman BUST
Austin Panter- bust
James Rogers- bust
Ryan Van Bergen- Solid starter
Boubacar- bust
Marcus Witherspoon- bust

Book still out on Martin and Fitzgerald

Star's are nice thing to look at and go OOOOOWWWW but as you can see 9 of those highly rated players Carr recruited have turned out to be complete and total bust's.

Nice try though to get the blame off Lloyd
[/quote]

Maybe if Lloyd was there to coach they would not have been busts. Did you ever think it could be because of the joke of a coach you have now? And I was agree stars mean nothing but was responding to Old Dans comment about highly touted recruits

Tinkertrain wrote:

I looked and you are correct that Lloyd did not have many top defensive recruits in his later years. As for recruiting top defensive players I will list the 4 and 5 star defensive recruits Carr retained from 2006,2007 and the part 2008 when he was still coach. Jonas Mouton-5 stars, Adam Patterson-4, Marques Slocum-5(no longer with team), Steve Brown-4 Corbrani Mixon-4(no longer with team), Brandon Graham-5, Donovan Warren-5, Michael Williams-4, Brandon Herron-4, Austin Panter-4, James Rogers-4, Ryan Van Bergen-4, J.B. Fitzgerald-4, Mike Martin-4, Marcus Witherspoon-4, Boubarcar Cissoko-5(no longer on team). RR defensive 4 and 5 star recruits-Brandon Smith-4, Wiiliam Campbell-5, Craig Roh-4, Anthony Lacota-4, J.T. Turner-5 and this year so far Josh Furman-4, Cullen Christian-4 and Marvin Robinson-4. Carr had 7 defensive three star recruits from 2006-till he left and RR has retained 17 so far. So Carr had more top recruits but RR has added depth with more 3 stars. Bottom line is there are enough highly touted players on this team to produce alot better than 3-9 and 5-7 period. Blaming Carr is an excuse.
[/quote]

Let's throw the star's out and look at thow these kid's that Carr recruited towards the end panned out

Jonas Mouton- Starter never lived up to potential
Adam Patterson- Complete bust
Slocum- Complete bust
Stevie Brown- Would have been bust had he not been moved to spinner.
Cobrini Mixon- Bust
Brandon Graham- STUD
Donovon Warren- Starter
Michael Williams- Lost starting spot this year to walk on BUST
Brandon Herron- Lost starting spot to true freshman BUST
Austin Panter- bust
James Rogers- bust
Ryan Van Bergen- Solid starter
Boubacar- bust
Marcus Witherspoon- bust

Book still out on Martin and Fitzgerald

Star's are nice thing to look at and go OOOOOWWWW but as you can see 9 of those highly rated players Carr recruited have turned out to be complete and total bust's.

Nice try though to get the blame off Lloyd
[/quote]

Thank you. Bottom line is Lloyd screwed UM on the D side of the ball(no depth and barely any top talent) and RR is taking the fall for it and will be lucky to even get a chance to prove himself at UM.

Also can we have one thread that doesn't turn into a ND/OSU pissing contest.

OldDanTucker wrote: Thank you. Bottom line is Lloyd screwed UM on the D side of the ball(no depth and barely any top talent) and RR is taking the fall for it and will be lucky to even get a chance to prove himself at UM.

If Lloyd screwed them on the D side, perhaps RR should have recruited a little heavier there first. (and maybe the recruits RR did get are just gaining needed experience and are going to turn it up this year, but I will be surprised.)

Had to get guys on the O side of the ball first to run his system. You can only sign so many guys. This year the focus has been D. The defense SHOULD be much improved following this season (still going to be very young in the secondary)

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't claim to have my finger on the pulse of UM alumni, but I think going ofer OSU is going to be his deciding issue. Lloyd was poised to go to a NC and lost to OSU, got the axe. Much the same way Cooper got the axe for his pitiful record against UM. The question is, regardless of record, would a W over OSU let him stay?

How many recruits are going to go through UM not having beaten their most hated rival before UM brass pulls the trigger?

OldDanTucker wrote:

Tinkertrain wrote:

I looked and you are correct that Lloyd did not have many top defensive recruits in his later years. As for recruiting top defensive players I will list the 4 and 5 star defensive recruits Carr retained from 2006,2007 and the part 2008 when he was still coach. Jonas Mouton-5 stars, Adam Patterson-4, Marques Slocum-5(no longer with team), Steve Brown-4 Corbrani Mixon-4(no longer with team), Brandon Graham-5, Donovan Warren-5, Michael Williams-4, Brandon Herron-4, Austin Panter-4, James Rogers-4, Ryan Van Bergen-4, J.B. Fitzgerald-4, Mike Martin-4, Marcus Witherspoon-4, Boubarcar Cissoko-5(no longer on team). RR defensive 4 and 5 star recruits-Brandon Smith-4, Wiiliam Campbell-5, Craig Roh-4, Anthony Lacota-4, J.T. Turner-5 and this year so far Josh Furman-4, Cullen Christian-4 and Marvin Robinson-4. Carr had 7 defensive three star recruits from 2006-till he left and RR has retained 17 so far. So Carr had more top recruits but RR has added depth with more 3 stars. Bottom line is there are enough highly touted players on this team to produce alot better than 3-9 and 5-7 period. Blaming Carr is an excuse.

Let's throw the star's out and look at thow these kid's that Carr recruited towards the end panned out

Jonas Mouton- Starter never lived up to potential
Adam Patterson- Complete bust
Slocum- Complete bust
Stevie Brown- Would have been bust had he not been moved to spinner.
Cobrini Mixon- Bust
Brandon Graham- STUD
Donovon Warren- Starter
Michael Williams- Lost starting spot this year to walk on BUST
Brandon Herron- Lost starting spot to true freshman BUST
Austin Panter- bust
James Rogers- bust
Ryan Van Bergen- Solid starter
Boubacar- bust
Marcus Witherspoon- bust

Book still out on Martin and Fitzgerald

Star's are nice thing to look at and go OOOOOWWWW but as you can see 9 of those highly rated players Carr recruited have turned out to be complete and total bust's.

Nice try though to get the blame off Lloyd
[/quote]

Thank you. Bottom line is Lloyd screwed UM on the D side of the ball(no depth and barely any top talent) and RR is taking the fall for it and will be lucky to even get a chance to prove himself at UM.
[/quote]

I really dont care about stars but RR is not exactly bringing great defensive talent. Maybe the blame should go partly to both instead of one or the other.

Tinkertrain wrote:
2006 was a team that got exposed in a major way at the end of the season.

Also i'm asking you this as a fellow michigan fan. shut up and let rich coach brother. Because if we dumb rich rod we are not going to get a better coach and ANOTHER rebuild of the program is going to take atleast 5 years.

Regardless, 2006 was 1 win away from playing in the NC game. OSU got exposed that year too. Did they fire JT and blow up the program and rebuild?

I am/have been willing to give RRod a chance. I would love for them to win 9-10 this year and go on to win multiple championships. I just don't think it is going to happen.

So how long do you "shut up and let rich coach"?

I think the timing is there for Jim Harbaugh if things don't work out with RRod. But he won't wait forever. Do you really think he is turning down jobs so he can stay at Stanford?

Tinkertrain wrote:
Let's throw the star's out and look at thow these kid's that Carr recruited towards the end panned out

Jonas Mouton- Starter never lived up to potential
Adam Patterson- Complete bust
Slocum- Complete bust
Stevie Brown- Would have been bust had he not been moved to spinner.
Cobrini Mixon- Bust
Brandon Graham- STUD
Donovon Warren- Starter
Michael Williams- Lost starting spot this year to walk on BUST
Brandon Herron- Lost starting spot to true freshman BUST
Austin Panter- bust
James Rogers- bust
Ryan Van Bergen- Solid starter
Boubacar- bust
Marcus Witherspoon- bust

Book still out on Martin and Fitzgerald

Star's are nice thing to look at and go OOOOOWWWW but as you can see 9 of those highly rated players Carr recruited have turned out to be complete and total bust's.

Nice try though to get the blame off Lloyd

So how is that Carr's fault? He got the guys in there. They didn't perform. Who's fault is that? Maybe some is Loyd's, maybe some is Rich's.

You want to argue that Carr didn't recruit well at the end, but then have to defend decently ranked classes. Doesn't make sense.

WebFire wrote:

Tinkertrain wrote:
2006 was a team that got exposed in a major way at the end of the season.

Also i'm asking you this as a fellow michigan fan. shut up and let rich coach brother. Because if we dumb rich rod we are not going to get a better coach and ANOTHER rebuild of the program is going to take atleast 5 years.

Regardless, 2006 was 1 win away from playing in the NC game. OSU got exposed that year too. Did they fire JT and blow up the program and rebuild?

I am/have been willing to give RRod a chance. I would love for them to win 9-10 this year and go on to win multiple championships. I just don't think it is going to happen.

So how long do you "shut up and let rich coach"?

I think the timing is there for Jim Harbaugh if things don't work out with RRod. But he won't wait forever. Do you really think he is turning down jobs so he can stay at Stanford?

^^^Agree

OldDanTucker wrote:

Let's throw the star's out and look at thow these kid's that Carr recruited towards the end panned out

Jonas Mouton- Starter never lived up to potential
Adam Patterson- Complete bust
Slocum- Complete bust
Stevie Brown- Would have been bust had he not been moved to spinner.
Cobrini Mixon- Bust
Brandon Graham- STUD
Donovon Warren- Starter
Michael Williams- Lost starting spot this year to walk on BUST
Brandon Herron- Lost starting spot to true freshman BUST
Austin Panter- bust
James Rogers- bust
Ryan Van Bergen- Solid starter
Boubacar- bust
Marcus Witherspoon- bust

Book still out on Martin and Fitzgerald

Star's are nice thing to look at and go OOOOOWWWW but as you can see 9 of those highly rated players Carr recruited have turned out to be complete and total bust's.

Nice try though to get the blame off Lloyd

lol, so it's the fault of the recruiter for bringing in high rated players that they turn out to be a bust, and not the coach for not teaching them to play good football?

[/quote]

Maybe if Lloyd was there to coach they would not have been busts. Did you ever think it could be because of the joke of a coach you have now? And I was agree stars mean nothing but was responding to Old Dans comment about highly touted recruits
[/quote]

I dont think it matter's who was the coach with these kid's because the majority of them have one fundamental flaw that can't be coached around....... THERE SLOW! Remember when Michigan got run over, around and through by Appy State and Oregon to start the 07 season? Speed as an issue with the Michigan defense then and Rich Rod was no where near Michigan.

That joke of a coach you are referring too scares the ever living shit out of Buckeye fan's. They wont admit it but they know it spells major trouble for their beloved buckeyes if Rich Rod succeed's in Ann Arbor.

You shut up and give Rich Rod 5 year's..... end of discussion.

Also Jim Harbaugh will NEVER be the head coach at the University of Michigan and you can take that to the bank.

Tinkertrain wrote: You shut up and give Rich Rod 5 year's..... end of discussion.

Also Jim Harbaugh will NEVER be the head coach at the University of Michigan and you can take that to the bank.

Because you said so?

Tinkertrain wrote:
I dont think it matter's who was the coach with these kid's because the majority of them have one fundamental flaw that can't be coached around....... THERE SLOW!

THEY'RE SLOW? I'd like to see 40 times. 4 and 5 star recruits are usually not slow.

Tinkertrain wrote: That joke of a coach you are referring too scares the ever living shit out of Buckeye fan's. They wont admit it but they know it spells major trouble for their beloved buckeyes if Rich Rod succeed's in Ann Arbor.

I do not know a single Buckeye fan that is even remotely scared of RRod.

You have a pm about why he'll never be the coach at Michigan. Basically you dont do and say the things that Jimmy has said about Michigan and then expect to get the red carpet treatment.

Tinkertrain wrote: That joke of a coach you are referring too scares the ever living shit out of Buckeye fan's. They wont admit it but they know it spells major trouble for their beloved buckeyes if Rich Rod succeed's in Ann Arbor.

That's a huge 'if' at this point IMHO

Tinkertrain wrote:
That joke of a coach you are referring too scares the ever living shit out of Buckeye fan's.

Maybe because of how embarrassed we would be if he actually beat us.

Tinkertrain wrote: You shut up and give Rich Rod 5 year's..... end of discussion.

A coach really needs 5 years to get a winning record?

[/quote]

I do not know a single Buckeye fan that is even remotely scared of RRod.
[/quote]

They just wont admit it but believe me they are.

IF Rich Rod get's Michigan turned around and back to national prominence it has serious consequences for Ohio State especially with recruiting.

The Buckeye's basically have complete dominence in the midwest when it comes to recruiting. They pretty much get who they want for the most part because they are the premier program in the midwest. If Michigan becomes what they once were again that dominence will be challenged and Ohio State will not get the pick of the litter like they used too and that will force them to recruit more nationally. It's no secret that outside of the midwest Tress does not recruit overly well and that's because he does not have the recruiting juice to outrecruit the sec and or pac 10 coaches. Rich Rod has allready shown he can go into sec territory play with the big boys and win.

WebFire wrote:

Tinkertrain wrote: They wont admit it but they know it spells major trouble for their beloved buckeyes if Rich Rod succeed's in Ann Arbor.

I do not know a single Buckeye fan that is even remotely scared of RRod.

That is because right now they don't exist. I know I'm not in the least bit concerned.

Tinkertrain wrote:

Maybe if Lloyd was there to coach they would not have been busts. Did you ever think it could be because of the joke of a coach you have now? And I was agree stars mean nothing but was responding to Old Dans comment about highly touted recruits
[/quote]

I dont think it matter's who was the coach with these kid's because the majority of them have one fundamental flaw that can't be coached around....... THERE SLOW! Remember when Michigan got run over, around and through by Appy State and Oregon to start the 07 season? Speed as an issue with the Michigan defense then and Rich Rod was no where near Michigan.

That joke of a coach you are referring too scares the ever living shit out of Buckeye fan's. They wont admit it but they know it spells major trouble for their beloved buckeyes if Rich Rod succeed's in Ann Arbor.
[/quote]

I have absolutely no fear of RR at all. He is joke. He runs a gimmic that Ohio State and other schoools are starting to catch up with already. See the Rose Bowl. The offense he runs is just like the west coast offense, the wishbone etc they are gimmics and gimmics dont last forever. Remember he ran this in the Big East. After Miami and V-T he then became the big boy not before. The only fear I have of RR is how far the program goes down before he is gone as I want Tsun to be good.