BR1986FB;1769958 wrote:Disagree with the first part. Nobody has "changed their minds" about Manziel over them beating a shitty Niners team. It was your dumbass "zero improvement" comment that prompted the discussion.

I do agree with your second comment though. I don't think JFF can be trusted and will always be a distraction. Not that I'm sold on Josh Gordon changing his ways but, if he intends to, I'd think Manziel would be the LAST person he'd want to hang out with. Too many "bad choice" situations to get into with Manziel around.

Debating over "improvement" is meaningless. I don't think JFF will ever improve himself enough to be a relevant QB in this league. He's not talented enough, plain and simple.

To further elaborate my point, JFF ceiling is probably 8-8. That isn't good enough. I'm not sure how anyone can watch him play, even after leading the Browns to a win and say "JFF will make the Browns a Super bowl contender".

He's not the solution. I won't settle for anything less than the solution.

Johnny Football was very successful in college and he can be in the pros as well.

Just needs time to gel behind veterans like McCown

MontyBrunswick;1769988 wrote:Johnny Football was very successful in college and he can be in the pros as well.

Just needs time to gel behind veterans like McCown

Success in college is irrelevant or barely correlated with success in the NFL. There is a long list of good college QBs that were pure garbage in the NFL and Manziel is on this list.

sleeper;1770002 wrote:Success in college is irrelevant or barely correlated with success in the NFL. There is a long list of good college QBs that were pure garbage in the NFL .

Shhhh don't tell that to Footwedge.

sleeper;1769976 wrote:To further elaborate my point, JFF ceiling is probably 8-8. That isn't good enough. I'm not sure how anyone can watch him play, even after leading the Browns to a win and say "JFF will make the Browns a Super bowl contender".

He's not the solution. I won't settle for anything less than the solution.

Good post

Ironman92;1769510 wrote:Big measuring stick for Manziel.

Pretty sure he is still just 5' 10".

Ironman92;1770029 wrote:Good post

Not really. How long do we give a QB before we decide if he is the solution or not? We're seeing now what drafting qbs in the first round every other year is doing to us. Our skill positions are terrible, hell, most of the positions on the team are terrible. Are we going to keep putting rookie qbs behind a shit line with nobody to run or throw 2? Just doesn't make sense.

sleeper;1770002 wrote:Success in college is irrelevant or barely correlated with success in the NFL. There is a long list of good college QBs that were pure garbage in the NFL and Manziel is on this list.

Everyone in the NFL was good in college outside of Matt Cassell, Mingo, and Tom Brady.

Sonofanump;1770049 wrote:Pretty sure he is still just 5' 10".

Nice

Commander of Awesome;1770055 wrote:Everyone in the NFL was good in college outside of Matt Cassell, Mingo, and Tom Brady.

Yeah Frank Gore was awesome at Miami :rolleyes:

Rotinaj;1770053 wrote:Not really. How long do we give a QB before we decide if he is the solution or not? We're seeing now what drafting qbs in the first round every other year is doing to us. Our skill positions are terrible, hell, most of the positions on the team are terrible. Are we going to keep putting rookie qbs behind a shit line with nobody to run or throw 2? Just doesn't make sense.

Agreed. Drew Brees was almost ran out of SD before he finally got "it", and by then it was too late and they had already draft Rivers to come in and replace him. Thus, Rivers sat the bench for a year or two, and then Brees left via FA. Can't write off a player, who's shown they can play a bit, and for the most part this year, play consistently. If he was JaMarcus Russell level bad this season, you could probably write him off, but after only a handful of games, It's premature.

That's why earlier on this thread, I mentioned I was good with giving Manziel the rest of this year, and all of next to be "the man". Either he sucks a bag of dicks, and we pick high again next season, or he shows something, and the team improves, and you can begin adding pieces around him.

Rotinaj;1770053 wrote:Not really. How long do we give a QB before we decide if he is the solution or not? We're seeing now what drafting qbs in the first round every other year is doing to us. Our skill positions are terrible, hell, most of the positions on the team are terrible. Are we going to keep putting rookie qbs behind a shit line with nobody to run or throw 2? Just doesn't make sense.

I was going with the thought that he isn't the guy to help them get to be a SB contender.

75% of our roster isn't good enough to play meaning downs on a Super Bowl contender. If Manziel looks average the rest of the season I really hope they focus elsewhere in next years draft.

Rotinaj;1770053 wrote:Not really. How long do we give a QB before we decide if he is the solution or not? We're seeing now what drafting qbs in the first round every other year is doing to us. Our skill positions are terrible, hell, most of the positions on the team are terrible. Are we going to keep putting rookie qbs behind a shit line with nobody to run or throw 2? Just doesn't make sense.

A solution does not lose the starting job to freaking Josh McCown.

Rotinaj;1770081 wrote:75% of our roster isn't good enough to play meaning downs on a Super Bowl contender. If Manziel looks average the rest of the season I really hope they focus elsewhere in next years draft.

Except QBs ultimately are the most important piece to winning a super bowl, 9/10. Manziel isn't that guy.

sleeper;1770083 wrote:A solution does not lose the starting job to freaking Josh McCown.

McCown was named the starter the moment he signed, was never a competition.

HighRoller74;1770089 wrote:McCown was named the starter the moment he signed, was never a competition.

Semantics. The Browns would have not needed to look for a starter in FA if it had anything in Manziel.

Rotinaj;1770081 wrote:75% of our roster isn't good enough to play meaning downs on a Super Bowl contender.

And probably 50+% of this roster wouldn't start on other teams, let alone a Super Bowl contender. On offense, you have 3 O-Lineman who'd probably be starters, Barnidge/Benjamin would be a "push" to start somewhere and on defense you'd have Haden, maybe Gipson and a coin flip on Kruger. The "talent" on this squad sucks.

Does the talent actually suck, or do the coaches suck? A. At getting them in correct positions/schemes and B. Developing them.

Laley23;1770158 wrote:Does the talent actually suck, or do the coaches suck? A. At getting them in correct positions/schemes and B. Developing them.

I think it's both. The coaching is obviously bush league but there are no impact studs, especially on defense, for teams to worry about.

In a 3-4, you'd hope the team would have terrorizing pass rushers or at least a thumper at ILB. They have neither. For as much money as they've spent on defense, it still needs a major overhaul.

Offensively, they will have two good O-Lineman, a slot receiver (Benjamin) with speed and a "good hands" TE. Now if Gordon returns, their WR corps will go from "so so" to above average. They still have no home run hitting RB and the QB position is a huge question mark.

Laley23;1770158 wrote:Does the talent actually suck, or do the coaches suck? A. At getting them in correct positions/schemes and B. Developing them.

I think the talent is there or at least somewhat competitive with most NFL teams(besides QB, where we have the worst QB in the NFL starting right now). Coaches are bad though for sure.

Laley23;1770158 wrote:Does the talent actually suck, or do the coaches suck? A. At getting them in correct positions/schemes and B. Developing them.

Both IMO. 6 win talent that bad coaching is dragging down to 3-4 wins.

I just can't fathom that the players all suck that bad. Especially some of the guys who showed promise before this regime took over.

Laley23;1770215 wrote:I just can't fathom that the players all suck that bad. Especially some of the guys who showed promise before this regime took over.

Prior to this regime they'd lost 11+ for 6 straight seasons, so I'm not sure how its hard to believe the players suck.