Defeating deeply held beliefs

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sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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27,879 posts
Jun 4, 2014 11:22 AM
Do you believe it is possible to remove/change deeply held beliefs from an individual? If so, what strategies do you find effective in doing so? If not, why do you believe so?

Most of you have seen/read my strategy on how to change the beliefs of an individual and I'm not sure my strategy is very effective. I'm looking for new ideas to improve my ability to persuade people into my line of thinking.

Thoughts? : thumbup:
Jun 4, 2014 11:22am
V

vball10set

paying it forward

24,795 posts
Jun 4, 2014 11:26 AM
anything short of mind altering drugs is worthless

/boomer'd
Jun 4, 2014 11:26am
like_that's avatar

like_that

1st Team All-PWN

26,625 posts
Jun 4, 2014 11:26 AM
sleeper;1622494 wrote:Do you believe it is possible to remove/change deeply held beliefs from an individual? If so, what strategies do you find effective in doing so? If not, why do you believe so?

Most of you have seen/read my strategy on how to change the beliefs of an individual and I'm not sure my strategy is very effective. I'm looking for new ideas to improve my ability to persuade people into my line of thinking.

Thoughts? : thumbup:
Unfortunately no. Some people just drink far too much kool aid to the point that you can destroy their views with facts, but they will still be stubborn to their view.
Jun 4, 2014 11:26am
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Jun 4, 2014 11:27 AM
If some of your views weren't ridiculous, that could help.
Jun 4, 2014 11:27am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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27,879 posts
Jun 4, 2014 11:37 AM
like_that;1622496 wrote:Unfortunately no. Some people just drink far too much kool aid to the point that you can destroy their views with facts, but they will still be stubborn to their view.
Do you think ignorance is the primary driver of this? I don't understand why people are so stubborn in their views; it logically does not make any sense to maintain a broken line of thinking just because you were initially anchored into that belief.
Jun 4, 2014 11:37am
vdubb96's avatar

vdubb96

Urbans Meyers Stache

2,210 posts
Jun 4, 2014 11:38 AM
I'll change your beliefs for $20
Jun 4, 2014 11:38am
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

Legend

27,879 posts
Jun 4, 2014 11:41 AM
queencitybuckeye;1622497 wrote:If some of your views weren't ridiculous, that could help.
I would argue that is part of my current strategy. When presented with a logically flawed opposing position, merely taken the middle ground position to sway the masses allows too much overlapping of facts, logic and evidence. Taken the extreme contrary position is much more viable because at the end of the argument the person has no choice but to at least move from their current 'extreme' position to at least some step towards your position. That is progress, which is at least something, especially given how entrenched most people are in their beliefs.
Jun 4, 2014 11:41am
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:15 PM
Yes I believe it is possible.

I don't employ any strategies because I don't attempt to change someone's beliefs.
Jun 4, 2014 12:15pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:19 PM
sleeper;1622503 wrote:I would argue that is part of my current strategy. When presented with a logically flawed opposing position, merely taken the middle ground position to sway the masses allows too much overlapping of facts, logic and evidence. Taken the extreme contrary position is much more viable because at the end of the argument the person has no choice but to at least move from their current 'extreme' position to at least some step towards your position. That is progress, which is at least something, especially given how entrenched most people are in their beliefs.
Of course they have a choice. They can see that your argument is at least as flawed as theirs, therefore, there's no reason to change. And in that case, they're right.
Jun 4, 2014 12:19pm
SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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35,632 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:23 PM
Con_Alma;1622516 wrote:Yes I believe it is possible.

I don't employ any strategies because I don't attempt to change someone's beliefs.
Con Alma'd
Jun 4, 2014 12:23pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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27,879 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:27 PM
queencitybuckeye;1622519 wrote:Of course they have a choice. They can see that your argument is at least as flawed as theirs, therefore, there's no reason to change. And in that case, they're right.
By taking a position counter to mine, your baseline logic is flawed by definition. The issue is getting the other party to see how flawed their logic is and submit to the correct position.
Jun 4, 2014 12:27pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 4, 2014 12:27 PM
SportsAndLady;1622523 wrote:Con Alma'd
Indeed.
Jun 4, 2014 12:27pm
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vball10set

paying it forward

24,795 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:28 PM
The idiocy continues...
Jun 4, 2014 12:28pm
lhslep134's avatar

lhslep134

why so serious?

9,774 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:30 PM
sleeper;1622501 wrote:Do you think ignorance is the primary driver of this? I don't understand why people are so stubborn in their views; it logically does not make any sense to maintain a broken line of thinking just because you were initially anchored into that belief.
Not ignorance, lack of logic/reason. Or inability to separate emotion from logic/reason.
Jun 4, 2014 12:30pm
Heretic's avatar

Heretic

Son of the Sun

18,820 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:32 PM
lhslep134;1622531 wrote:Not ignorance, lack of logic/reason. Or inability to separate emotion from logic/reason.
This.

The best solution is forced euthanasia. I mean, words and stuff is always good for shits and giggles, but if you truly want to solve people, you finish them.
Jun 4, 2014 12:32pm
Q

queencitybuckeye

Senior Member

7,117 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:33 PM
sleeper;1622526 wrote:By taking a position counter to mine, your baseline logic is flawed by definition.
Your topics are often interesting and thought-provoking, then you go into troll mode with statements like this. Why?
Jun 4, 2014 12:33pm
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vball10set

paying it forward

24,795 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:33 PM
Heretic;1622532 wrote:This.

The best solution is forced euthanasia. I mean, words and stuff is always good for shits and giggles, but if you truly want to solve people, you finish them.
So sleeper should just off himself?
Jun 4, 2014 12:33pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 4, 2014 12:34 PM
lhslep134;1622531 wrote:Not ignorance, lack of logic/reason. Or inability to separate emotion from logic/reason.
This is probably the bigger offender. Emotions have a way of disrupting even the most intelligent humans on the planet, particularly the emotion of fear.
Jun 4, 2014 12:34pm
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vball10set

paying it forward

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Jun 4, 2014 12:36 PM
sleeper;1622537 wrote:Emotions have a way of disrupting even the most intelligent humans on the planet...
I think you just answered your question :cool:
Jun 4, 2014 12:36pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 4, 2014 12:38 PM
queencitybuckeye;1622534 wrote:Your topics are often interesting and thought-provoking, then you go into troll mode with statements like this. Why?
I'm not sure its troll statement rather my own perspective. I derive my thoughts, ideas, beliefs from a logical position regardless of its morality, popularity, or emotional response. In the event, on certain topics, that I do not have sufficient data to form a rational opinion, only then is the above statement that I made wrong. However, most of the time, in most scenarios, a counter position to mine is indeed flawed. Call it ego, call it arrogance, disagree all you want; but that is my perspective and that is my reality.
Jun 4, 2014 12:38pm
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:39 PM
sleeper;1622537 wrote:This is probably the bigger offender. Emotions have a way of disrupting even the most intelligent humans on the planet, particularly the emotion of fear.
I would also include love with a similar strength of impact from an emotional perspective.
Jun 4, 2014 12:39pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:42 PM
Confirmation bias, among other behavioral psychology explanations. Basically, you'd have to pretend to be a like-minded idiot in order to gain their trust so that you can trick them into learning something.

In real life, I don't care about educating my barber...I just want a good haircut. And I just want my cleaning lady to do a good job scrubbing my toilets - if I were to convince her of the scores of hidden taxes Democrats are dumping on her, then she might want to be paid more :)
Jun 4, 2014 12:42pm
sleeper's avatar

sleeper

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Jun 4, 2014 12:43 PM
Con_Alma;1622545 wrote:I would also include love with a similar strength of impact from an emotional perspective.
Agreed. Love is extremely irrational.
Jun 4, 2014 12:43pm
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Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:52 PM
Only using the left side of the brain to make decisions denies the individual of the full capacity and process available to them as a human. The most exhaustive decision making process a human can make should come from a a right brain /left brain blended, cross-over process.
Jun 4, 2014 12:52pm
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BR1986FB

Senior Member

24,104 posts
Jun 4, 2014 12:56 PM
Heretic;1622532 wrote:This.

The best solution is forced euthanasia. I mean, words and stuff is always good for shits and giggles, but if you truly want to solve people, you finish them.
I live by these words and agree 100%.
Jun 4, 2014 12:56pm