QuakerOats;1584341 wrote:Horse shit.

And for another glowing example of the crushing pain being inflicted upon Americans by this disastrous law you can read the piece in Monday's Wall St. Journal by Stephen Blackwood, president of Ralston College in Georgia, about his mother. Effectively, she will be killed by obamaKare.

Hope you are happy.

Don't you even try to look for alternatives to writings that only confirm what you want to hear? Read this piece: http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-cancer-medicine-20140224,0,4157578.story#axzz2uMRNvm8R The woman's policy which was cancelled was a high end one, so it is unlikely it was cancelled due to Obamacare requirements. More likely is that it was cancelled because Blue Cross didn't want to continue covering an expensive patient from a limited pool. His mother was lied to by Humana when they denied covering her drug. That's a travesty, but has nothing to do with Obamacare

Obamacare isn't centrally managed healthcare, the insurance companies are still very much in control - too much in my opinion. This guy's claim that Obamacare is killing his mother belongs to the same category as the "death panels" that were bantered about awhile back.

The death panel would be the Independent Payment Advisory Board, aka IPAB, and yes it is effectively a death panel, and yes it was also brought to you exclusively by obamaKare.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303945704579390772732855560

As for lying: "If you like your health plan you can keep it". Tell that to Mr. Blackwood and his mother. The exact opposite is occurring precisely due to obamaKare, and people are going to die as a direct result of the lies spewed by this radical president.

Health care plans have been cancelled since insurance companies first came on the scene. There is nothing in Blackwood's column that makes it reasonable that Obamacare had anything to do with it. In general, the plans that were cancelled because of the legislation were catastrophic-only type coverage, which this guy's mother's plan was not. Her Blue Cross plan was obviously very state of the art which makes it unlikely that it didn't meet Obamacare's minimum requirements. So in other words, you can blame Blue Cross for that.

Seriously, don't you look into anything you're saying? I just looked up the Independent Advisory Board. It is a board of ten physicians charged with reducing medicare costs - while not being allowed to sacrifice the level of care for anyone. The idiot Sarah Palin was the coiner of the death panel charge and that had been proven totally bogus several years ago to the uninformed.

It is easy to jump on the Sarah Palin hate bandwagon; I get that. But the truth is, care can be denied by IPAB, and people will die. That is a simple, but inconvenient fact for the left.

As with the entire obamaKare disaster, what was supposed to happen did not, and in fact the opposite happened:

You can keep your insurance >> No, you can't.

You can keep your doctor >> No, you can't.

It will be "affordable" >> No, it is incredibly more expensive - premiums and deductibles.

It will insure the uninsured >> No, there will be at least 31 million still un-insured; nearly the same as before.

It will prevent those with pre-existing conditions from getting booted >> No, it will not, as we see in the Blackwood example, among many others.


I am not sure whether you are just a mouthpiece for obama, pelosi and sebelius, but it sure sounds like it. That is too bad, because obamaKare is not only ruining the greatest health care the world has ever known, it will take the economy down with it.

Change we can believe in ...

QuakerOats;1584503 wrote: But the truth is, care can be denied by IPAB, and people will die. That is a simple, but inconvenient fact for the left.

Wrong. Go read about this panel and its charge. It is working on macro ways to make Medicare more cost effective, It is charged with doing so WITHOUT taking away the quality or amount of care for anyone. Reviewing individual cases is not part of its job anyhow.

Obamacare is the first meaningful effort at abuse by the insurance industry. It is not reform of medical practices, but of the insurance industry. In my opinion it doesn't go far enough. Ruanaway costs that insurance companies have facilitated have gone on for the last 15-20 years - long before Obamacare. My premiums have gone up year over year in forever. The fact that they go up again this one year's got nothing to do with this legislation. It's simply another cash grab by the insurers.

I'm not a mouthpiece for anyone but me. I am not a party line voter and am not a political junkie. The world sets up more complex than you suggest. so I vote my brain.

QuakerOats;1584503 wrote:It is easy to jump on the Sarah Palin hate bandwagon; I get that. But the truth is, care can be denied by IPAB, and people will die. That is a simple, but inconvenient fact for the left.

As with the entire obamaKare disaster, what was supposed to happen did not, and in fact the opposite happened:

You can keep your insurance >> No, you can't.

You can keep your doctor >> No, you can't.

It will be "affordable" >> No, it is incredibly more expensive - premiums and deductibles.

It will insure the uninsured >> No, there will be at least 31 million still un-insured; nearly the same as before.

It will prevent those with pre-existing conditions from getting booted >> No, it will not, as we see in the Blackwood example, among many others.


I am not sure whether you are just a mouthpiece for obama, pelosi and sebelius, but it sure sounds like it. That is too bad, because obamaKare is not only ruining the greatest health care the world has ever known, it will take the economy down with it.

Change we can believe in ...

The post stands, as it is completely factual. As with all liberal legislation, obamaKare is generating the exact opposite of its stated intent.


And then we have this:

IRS WARNS: OBAMACARE TAX MUST BE PAID...

The brownshirts will be storming your doors.

We are approaching dangerous territory.

Change we can believe in ...

Your post is not completely factual. There is no government boogey man deciding who lives and dies; most everyone does get to keep their insurance and doctor. If they had a catastrophic only policy, that may not be the case. But then that isn't really participating in the insurance market in the first place. And finally, pre-existing conditions are not valid reasons for denying insurance coverage. The Blackwood column is not an example of that. In fact, that column isn't an example of any of the things you assert.

Then again, you've brought out the Nazi comparison. In my experience, once that makes its appearance, it's time for others to realize that rational discourse is no longer going to happen.

Buried in Section 3403 of ObamaCare is a powerful board of unelected bureaucrats, the so-called “Independent Payment Advisory Board” (IPAB), whose sole job will be to save money by restricting access to health care for Medicare beneficiaries. IPAB is required to achieve specified savings in years where Medicare spending is deemed “too high,” according to the Democrats’ health care overhaul.

While few Americans are aware that this ObamaCare rationing board even exists, it embodies the very thing Americans feared most about the law – unaccountable Washington bureaucrats meeting behind closed doors to make unilateral decisions that should be made by patients and their doctors. A review of IPAB’s powers make clear that the American people have every reason to be concerned.

• The Democrats did not prevent IPAB from rationing health care. The Democrats claim they &#8220revent” IPAB from including recommendations to ration health care. However, the Democrats chose not to define what they meant by “ration,” and such a definition does not appear anywhere in the Medicare statute. So, rationing is in the eye of the IPAB beholder. IPAB would be free to cut reimbursement rates for procedures and services that IPAB deems “unnecessary” to levels so low that no physician would provide the care.
  
• The Democrats’ rationing board will threaten seniors’ access to care. Medicare is already known for its low reimbursement rates (e.g., Medicare physician payment rates are 20 percent lower than what they receive from private health plans), which have forced many physicians to stop accepting new Medicare patients. IPAB is specifically tasked with cutting provider rates even further. Countless physician groups have warned these cuts will force many to stop seeing Medicare patients. Because TRICARE reimbursement rates are directly tied to Medicare, health care for military personnel will be impacted by these cuts as well.
  
• Democrats require seniors and Americans with disabilities to pay for IPAB to cut their Medicare benefits. IPAB’s annual operating budget is raided from the Medicare trust funds. This means that IPAB’s generous member salaries ($165,300 for members and $179,700 for IPAB’s chairperson in 2012) will be paid directly out of the trust funds used to pay Medicare beneficiaries’ health care claims. IPAB staff will also be paid out of the Medicare trust funds (up to $145,700 per employee in 2012). So will all travel expenses and stipends. What a deal!
  
• Democrats gave IPAB blanket authority to operate in secret. There is no requirement in the Democrats’ 2,200+ page health care law that requires IPAB to hold public meetings or hearings, consider public input on its proposals, or make its deliberations open to the public.
  
• IPAB may become the most corrupt entity in Washington. ObamaCare states that IPAB “may accept, use, and dispose of gifts or donations of services or property.” This provides a not so subtle invitation for lobbyists to lavish the unelected and unaccountable IPAB members with cash, meals, cars, vacations, or even houses!
  
• Democrats provided the President with unchecked power. Here are a couple of disturbing scenarios:
  
  • The President uses recess appointments to avoid congressional approval for his IPAB nominations, so the President stacks the deck. If Congress opposes IPAB’s recommended Medicare cuts, the House and Senate would have to pass an identical bill to override and replace the IPAB cuts. However, the President may unilaterally decide that IPAB’s cuts are “better” and veto the legislation passed by Congress. If Congress fails to secure the required supermajority vote to override the President’s veto, then the unelected IPAB’s Medicare cuts become law, over the objections of a majority of elected Congressional officials.
    
  • If the Senate fails to appoint any members to IPAB (something that is probably more likely than not given recent history), the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), who is appointed by the President, would be responsible for developing Medicare cuts. Presumably, the HHS Secretary will work in close consultation with the White House. If Congress fails to override the Secretary’s cuts, they become law. Alternatively, if Congress does override the Secretary’s cuts, all the President would have do is veto Congress’ bill, and the HHS proposal that the President helped design would become law. Either way, the scales are tipped in the President’s favor.
    
  
  
• The Democrats may have anointed a Medicare “king.” All that’s required to send IPAB’s Medicare cuts to Congress (and perhaps later become law) is a majority of IPAB members present at the time a vote is called. If the President only appoints, and the Senate confirms, just one IPAB member, that sole unelected office with have complete, unfettered, and unilateral authority to cut Medicare by way of a process that was intentionally designed to tie the hands of Congress. Is the “Godfather of Rationing,” Don Berwick, available?
  
• Nothing prevents IPAB from going beyond its mandate and recommending a package of proposals that cut Medicare even deeper than what Democrats have asked IPAB to do. More troubling, if Congress is unable to override such a proposal, it would become law.

And more 'rational discourse':

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottatlas/2012/10/21/ipab-president-obamas-nice-way-to-ration-care-to-seniors/

"Only after being signed into law by President Obama has the nature of those changes become visible. While many of the law’s provisions and their implications are necessarily complex, wordsmithing by the crafters of the ACA and strident denials by its supporters have masked some of the most significant impacts of the law.
But common sense still matters.
President Obama’s ACA established the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), a 15-member panel of unelected federal employees; its members to be appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate. The law does not require the IPAB to be bi-partisan in structure, as is required for almost all other independent agencies. Its mission is specific – to restrict payments to doctors and hospitals in order to achieve a reduction in Medicare spending beneath a specified cap.
The reality is that the IPAB represents an unprecedented shift of power from individual Americans and their families to a centralized authority, a controlling Board of political appointees that is virtually unaccountable, and destined to become President Obama’s version of the NICE rationing board in Britain’s socialized medical system, the National Health Service."




Speaks for itself.

More 'rational discourse':

[h=2]Democratic Senator: Obamacare’s IPAB Death Panels Must be Revisited[/h]


A Democratic senator in an interview today said the Independent Payment Advisory Board — which has come under criticism from pro-life groups and conservatives for its potential to ration health care via “death panels” — should be revisited. Even Democrats like Howard Dean have admitted death panels, or rationing, are included.
"The Independent Payment Advisory Board is set to go into action later this year. The IPAB is a Medicare cost-cutting board of “experts” legally possessing the power to impose its advise, even over the desires of Congress or the president.
It has been derisively referred to as a death panel because so many have called for it to have health care rationing powers and because its decisions could result in cost-cutting measures that deny lifesaving medical treatment. The Independent Payment Advisory Board was one of the most controversial parts of the Obamacare legislation — mainly because it puts 15 unelected strangers in charge of health decisions for most Americans.
In the name of “cost-certainty,” IPAB would have the authority to limit which specialists you see, what treatments are available, and in some cases, whether you’re eligible for care at all."

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/11/13/democratic-senator-obamacares-ipab-death-panels-must-be-revisited/


Incredible! THE PEOPLE pay in to medicare, and their employer matches the contribution throughout their entire working life, and now they come to find that some radical group of un-elected bureaucrats will stand in judgement over them as to whether THEIR MONEY (and their employers) can be used to pay for THEIR medical care.

BULLSHIT!!!!!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterubel/2013/01/09/why-it-is-so-difficult-to-kill-the-death-panel-myth/

If you want to trade Forbes articles, fine.

I don't see you changing your mind, fine too. A challenge to you though would be to read things that challenge your thinking. You don't appear to do that whatsoever. Maybe you'd still hold your same views and that's what makes America free.

I happily look at both sides. I am just not certain what proponents of obamaKare are looking at, especially when everything the plan was touted to do has had the complete opposite effect in reality. At some point you have to admit to the disaster that this is ...............except that never happens in D.C.

I just cannot, in good conscience, sit by while the world's greatest health care is beginning to be systematically dismantled; millions and millions of people are losing the coverage that they liked, and could afford; and the doctor/patient relationships become completely strained because of massive new bureaucracies. The system we had was not perfect, but we did not have to destroy it in the name of big, centralized, authoritarian government.

In the 40 years I've been following politics I've come to one general conclusion: Whenever the government steps in to "save the day" there is is a very good chance there will be plenty of casualties in its wake.

Obamacare will go down in American history is the supreme example of the propensity for expansionist government's ability to step on its own dick as well as the people it allegedly purports to serve.

For decades liberal politicians have salivated at the prospect of controlling the American health care industry; not because the real intentions were to insure efficient access to "affordable" health care for all, but to have yet another tool available to insure the future of their power base. Clearly when people are dependent upon the government for their livelihoods, they tend to vote for politicians who promise cradle to grave benefits.

Obamacare was cleverly designed to fail from the outset. The auto-clusterfuck misnamed the "Affordable" Care Act has one goal in mind: Setting the stage for American single-payer health care preferably modeled after the Euro-socialist health care train wrecks.

Folks, make no mistake...There's a ton of political power in controlling the health care of the sheeple. The Democrats, RINO Repubs, and their willing allies in the leftist-controlled mainstream media have joined together in one of the biggest political power grabs this country has ever seen.

In the 40 years I've been following politics I've come to one general conclusion: Whenever the government steps in to "save the day" chances are very good that there will be plenty of casualties in its wake.

Obamacare will go down in American history as the supreme example of the propensity for expansionist government to step on its own dick as well as the people it allegedly purports to serve.

For decades liberal politicians have salivated at the prospect of controlling the American health care industry; not because the real intentions were to insure efficient access to "affordable" health care for all, but to have yet another tool available to insure the future of their power base. Clearly when people are dependent upon the government for their livelihoods, they tend to vote for politicians who promise cradle to grave benefits.

Obamacare was cleverly designed to fail from the outset. The auto-clusterfuck misnamed the "Affordable" Care Act has one goal in mind: Setting the stage for American single-payer health care preferably modeled after the Euro-socialist health care train wrecks.

Folks, make no mistake...There's a ton of political power in controlling the health care of the sheeple. The Democrats, RINO Repubs, and their willing allies in the leftist-controlled mainstream media have joined together in one of the biggest political power grabs this country has ever seen.

In the 40 years I've been following politics I've come to one general conclusion: Whenever the government steps in to "save the day" chances are very good that there will be plenty of casualties in its wake.

Obamacare will go down in American history as the supreme example of the propensity for expansionist government to step on its own dick as well as the people it allegedly purports to serve.

For decades liberal politicians have salivated at the prospect of controlling the American health care industry; not because the real intentions were to insure efficient access to "affordable" health care for all, but to have yet another tool available to insure the future of their power base. Clearly when people are dependent upon the government for their livelihoods, they tend to vote for politicians who promise cradle to grave benefits.

Obamacare was cleverly designed to fail from the outset. The auto-clusterfuck misnamed the "Affordable" Care Act has one goal in mind: Setting the stage for American single-payer health care preferably modeled after the Euro-socialist health care train wrecks.

Folks, make no mistake...There's a ton of political power in controlling the health care of the sheeple. The Democrats, RINO Repubs, and their willing allies in the leftist-controlled mainstream media have joined together in one of the biggest political power grabs this country has ever seen.

Health insurance, not healthcare, is the target of the reform. The insurance industry has gotten out of control in the past 20 years and I am thankful that it is finally being addressed. Obamacare will not be perfect. But I appreciate what it is attempting to do. Any large reform such as this needs time in order to be judged in its entirety. I believe that in coming years, it will be judged a success. It is no the dismantling of healthcare system, but rather a resetting of the insurance industry - sorely needed. Millions and millions of people have not "lost" their insurance due to it. Policies that were bare-bones catastrophic coverage were eliminated and good. They inhibit the ability of the power of the population's spend to benefit those who need it most.

Unfortunately, the above is simply untrue.

You sound like Harry Reid yesterday.

[h=3]Timmons: Dayton Manufacturer An Example Of ACA Gone Wrong.[/h]The Dayton (OH) Business Journal (2/26, Cogliano, Subscription Publication) reports that in his State of Manufacturing speech in Houston, Texas, the National Association of Manufacturers President and CEO Jay Timmons used Ohio-based Staub Manufacturing to make a point about the Affordable Care Act. Timmons said the manufacturer “with just 22 employees, saw a 21 percent increase in health-care costs last year and it’s projecting a 91 percent increase this year.” Timmons said, “The health care law wasn’t supposed to impact manufacturers with fewer than 50, but I know one who was.” He added, “The company’s president made this very obvious statement: ‘the Affordable Care Act is far from affordable.”





obamaKare: bad for health care / bad for families / bad for business / bad for the economy


Change we can believe in ...

"The auto-clusterfuck misnamed the "Affordable" Care Act has one goal in mind: Setting the stage for American single-payer health care preferably modeled after the Euro-socialist health care train wrecks."

We live in Europe. I can't even schedule a basic health exam. To get into the system, you have to fill out a form, which once you turn in you'll get another form that says that they have received the form, and need you to confirm that you turned in the form. Oh, and they only work from 9:00 to 4:30 3 days a week, with 2 hours off for lunch.

I can't imagine what would happen if there was an emergency and we actually needed a doctor. European healthcare is absolutely awful. Like most socialized services. It doesn't make anything better for those who can't pay for it, it just makes everything worse for those that can.

Thank you for sharing your firsthand experience, Manhattan B.


I look forward to the democrat bloodbath next November.

In the 40 years I've been following politics I've come to one general conclusion: Whenever the government steps in to "save the day" chances are very good that there will be plenty of casualties in its wake.

I hold that truth to be self-evident.

QuakerOats;1585325 wrote:Thank you for sharing your firsthand experience, Manhattan B.


I look forward to the democrat bloodbath next November.

It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic, and if we didn't have a lot to lose. Unfortunately we do, we're trying to immigrate a baby girl, and need a health certificate (on each part) to do so....aside from spending nearly $100,000 we have to go through government bureaucracy, after government bureaucracy, and deal with worthless government employees that just make things difficult to justify their existence while they are pushing paper. I understand the need for background checks but my wife and I already have that, and I've had have FBI clearance since 2004 when I worked at Bear. We are the good people in society and are trying to do our best, but it is the statist/socialists that screw up everything, and it pisses me off that America voted for more of it.

Manhattan Buckeye;1585320 wrote:"The auto-clusterfuck misnamed the "Affordable" Care Act has one goal in mind: Setting the stage for American single-payer health care preferably modeled after the Euro-socialist health care train wrecks."

We live in Europe. I can't even schedule a basic health exam. To get into the system, you have to fill out a form, which once you turn in you'll get another form that says that they have received the form, and need you to confirm that you turned in the form. Oh, and they only work from 9:00 to 4:30 3 days a week, with 2 hours off for lunch.

I can't imagine what would happen if there was an emergency and we actually needed a doctor. European healthcare is absolutely awful. Like most socialized services. It doesn't make anything better for those who can't pay for it, it just makes everything worse for those that can.

I don't know anything about you or your current plan. But it isn't representative of anyone I know. I can pick up the phone and schedule and exam with my excellent Cleveland Clinic doctor and generally get in within a week. If it is an emergency, he will see me that very day. My coverage is middle of the road Anthem.

I wish you well on you adoption. But I don't think the hurdles you're having there have a thing to do with Obamacare.

^^^Yeah....NOW.
Do you think this is the end? When have you seen moderation once the government gets involved? Rest assured there will be more usurpations and interdictions until you have what MB is talking about in Europe.

Dr Winston O'Boogie;1585378 wrote:I don't know anything about you or your current plan. But it isn't representative of anyone I know. I can pick up the phone and schedule and exam with my excellent Cleveland Clinic doctor and generally get in within a week. If it is an emergency, he will see me that very day. My coverage is middle of the road Anthem.

I wish you well on you adoption. But I don't think the hurdles you're having there have a thing to do with Obamacare.

I'm talking about socialized medicine in Europe...did you even read my post? I live in London and healthcare here is terrible. I don't know why Americans want to be more like the EU.

I agree with you, in America we have the best healthcare in the world, we don't need to change a system that wasn't broken. It was only considered "broken" because it was politically convenient.