The evidence from portugal is compelling for drug legalization (like the evidence for gun prohibition from japan is compelling too).

On the issue of drugs, the evidence for legalization/de-criminalization lends me to support it and treat it as a public health issue.

One thing I wonder though is, are libertarian-leaning folks who support de-criminalization for liberty reasons interested at all in making the kind of collective committment as society on the public health side? For instance, we can agree that a habitual heroin user has not committed a crime. But, do are we interested in taking the steps as a society to ensure that a person who develops an addiction to heroin doesn't simply end up killing himself?

A family friend of mine growing up recently lost a son to a heroin overdose. He had been in and out of jail and in and out of treatment programs. The day he overdosed he had left a treatment program that day.

Do we just chalk that up as the cost of freedom/personal responsibility?

BoatShoes;1361101 wrote:The evidence from portugal is compelling for drug legalization (like the evidence for gun prohibition from japan is compelling too).

On the issue of drugs, the evidence for legalization/de-criminalization lends me to support it and treat it as a public health issue.

One thing I wonder though is, are libertarian-leaning folks who support de-criminalization for liberty reasons interested at all in making the kind of collective committment as society on the public health side? For instance, we can agree that a habitual heroin user has not committed a crime. But, do are we interested in taking the steps as a society to ensure that a person who develops an addiction to heroin doesn't simply end up killing himself?

A family friend of mine growing up recently lost a son to a heroin overdose. He had been in and out of jail and in and out of treatment programs. The day he overdosed he had left a treatment program that day.

Do we just chalk that up as the cost of freedom/personal responsibility?

Short answer, yes.

I'm generally fine with taking a big chunk of the money we now spend on enforcement/incarceration and redirecting it toward education/treatment.

BoatShoes;1361101 wrote:The evidence from portugal is compelling for drug legalization (like the evidence for gun prohibition from japan is compelling too).

On the issue of drugs, the evidence for legalization/de-criminalization lends me to support it and treat it as a public health issue.

One thing I wonder though is, are libertarian-leaning folks who support de-criminalization for liberty reasons interested at all in making the kind of collective committment as society on the public health side? For instance, we can agree that a habitual heroin user has not committed a crime. But, do are we interested in taking the steps as a society to ensure that a person who develops an addiction to heroin doesn't simply end up killing himself?

A family friend of mine growing up recently lost a son to a heroin overdose. He had been in and out of jail and in and out of treatment programs. The day he overdosed he had left a treatment program that day.

Do we just chalk that up as the cost of freedom/personal responsibility?

Unfortunately yes. At some point in time people have to assume the inherent risk of doing something that dangerous. I speak on this from experience. My brother was HEAVILY involved in Heroin, Cocaine for quite a few years. Since he graduated high school until 2 years ago(about 8 years) he sold, used and even spent some time in jail. Jail was a waste of time for him. He didn't care that he was in jail, he just wanted to get out so he could get back to selling/using again. It was so bad the day my dad passed away, he was shooting up in the bathroom as people stopped by my parents house to say their condolences. I then told him that he was not welcome at our parents house and that I wanted nothing to do with him and if my mom told me he was there, I would have him arrested. It was hard for my mom as she was kind of an enabler.

It was basically get help or wind up dead and alone for him. He decided at that point to seek help. He has been clean now for over 2 years and actually goes around to local schools/prisons and speaks to people about drug abuse and how to fight the addiction. People have to accept help and want it to work.

He admits to this day that the two main reasons why he quit and what helped him is that he started blaming himself for his drug use and mistakes and realized he has control over his actions and he turned his problem into a way to help others get better.

ernest_t_bass;1360860 wrote:If they were legalized, I just foresee some pretty bad things happening at first, before they start to settle down.

This is what worries me. I've had a number of friends and people I've grown up with die of overdosing. I am a believer in self-control, but losing almost 10 people sucks.

justincredible;1360863 wrote:Maybe. Maybe not. But pretty bad things are already happening so...

Yes they are.

It'd be nice if tax payer money wasn't paying for drug addicts and dealers in prison/rehab.

Fuck it. Natural selection. If you're dumb enough to put yourself in that danger, you deserve any and all consequences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal


Not sure Portugal is a good example. Drugs should be be completely decriminilized to remove the black market that results in many murders and other crimes.

hasbeen;1361287 wrote:Fuck it. Natural selection. If you're dumb enough to put yourself in that danger, you deserve any and all consequences.

When push comes to shove, this is where I land. I am all for this kind of thing being incorporated into education (elements of a health class, or even just science class).

Zombaypirate;1364244 wrote:Drugs should be be completely decriminilized to remove the black market that results in many murders and other crimes.

Additionally an EXCELLENT reason.

Portugal is an interesting case, but I'm always leary of applying something from a different culture and/or much smaller geography/population to the much larger and diverse US. And just because it worked in Portugal doesn't mean that's the answer or even a likely outcome.

I'd be open to letting some cities or states experiment with this where the impacts can be studied. There's no going back once you legalize, so you have to be damn certain it will have a positive effect.

As for marijuana I don't see much issue with decriminalizing it. But I'm very skeptical of statistics saying how many people are locked-up purely for marijuana. I suspect in most cases it's a secondary issue - just like alcohol, a lot of ciminals (like many people) use marijuana.

What are the cons of legalizing Marijuana?

If I could pick up an 8 ball of meth along with a pint of Makers Mark at Kroger's that would be really cool.

pmoney25;1366104 wrote:What are the cons of legalizing Marijuana?

Lots of prison guards would be out of work.

Lots of money fighting gang violence would have to be spent elsewhere.

Some people who have never tried it probably would.


I'm drawing blanks. I don't know what the harm would be.

fan_from_texas;1366166 wrote:Some people who have never tried it probably would.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure this number would be pretty damn small. Seems like most people I know who have never done it have opted thus because of something other than the fact that it is illegal.

Feel the same way about speed. I don't know anyone whose inhibition from trying it is only its legality.

If people want to try drugs, most of them are going to try drugs.

O-Trap;1366170 wrote:To be honest, I'm pretty sure this number would be pretty damn small. Seems like most people I know who have never done it have opted thus because of something other than the fact that it is illegal.

Maybe. I don't know. I've never smoked pot. I don't think there's anything wrong or immoral about it, but I haven't done it solely because it's illegal. If it were legal, I'd give it a shot for sure.

fan_from_texas;1366175 wrote:Maybe. I don't know. I've never smoked pot. I don't think there's anything wrong or immoral about it, but I haven't done it solely because it's illegal. If it were legal, I'd give it a shot for sure.

Fair enough.

O-Trap;1366177 wrote:Fair enough.

Yeah. I know a decent number of people who either don't do it or very, very rarely do so now simply due to working someplace where they do regular/random testing. It might be more of a question of "illegal + will get fired" more than one that simply revolves around it being illegal, but both fit under the same umbrella.

pmoney25;1366104 wrote:What are the cons of legalizing Marijuana?

There are none.

fan_from_texas;1366166 wrote:Lots of prison guards would be out of work.

Lots of money fighting gang violence would have to be spent elsewhere.

Some people who have never tried it probably would.


I'm drawing blanks. I don't know what the harm would be.

Yeah, I see all of these as pros. Even more people trying it.

But experts like Dr. Carlos Fugas, a psychologist who treats drug addicts in Lisbon, worry about the consequences of the Portuguese drug nirvana. “The herbal drugs people buy in ‘smart shops’, don’t show up in the statistics,” he says. “And there has been an increase in drug users since the recession began.” Adds Dr. Manuel Pinto Coelho, a drug treatment specialist: “When people speed, we don’t change the laws to simply allow speeding. Why do we have to accept drug use?”
Portugal is stuck in a deep recession despite the financial benefits of tolerating drug use. But, argues Miron, legalization still makes sense: “Whether drugs are legal or not impacts the wealth of the people who use them. If drugs are illegal, it pushes the users underground and exposes them to criminality. That affects the whole society, even people who don’t use drugs.”

so the coutry is in a deep depression, it hasnt prevented drug use, and it seems just as expensive to incarcerate as it does to rehabilitate? the pros are?

Eliminating the black market for drugs wont stop drug users from committing crimes. They will still need money to buy drugs, whether legal or illegal. So you say control and tax them...how is that working for prescription drugs which are being abused more than all other drugs except weed.

Glory Days;1366800 wrote:Eliminating the black market for drugs wont stop drug users from committing crimes.

No more than it does booze. People still do steal money to buy booze, cigarettes, televisions, etc., but I think you missed the point: It WILL stop the black market drug PUSHER from having a market where they are responsible to nobody and respect few, if any, laws.

Glory Days;1366800 wrote:They will still need money to buy drugs, whether legal or illegal.

Again ... booze, televisions ...

Glory Days;1366800 wrote:So you say control and tax them...how is that working for prescription drugs which are being abused more than all other drugs except weed.

How about DON'T try to control them?

What a novel idea.

Glory Days;1366800 wrote:so the coutry is in a deep depression, it hasnt prevented drug use, and it seems just as expensive to incarcerate as it does to rehabilitate? the pros are?

Eliminating the black market for drugs wont stop drug users from committing crimes. They will still need money to buy drugs, whether legal or illegal. So you say control and tax them...how is that working for prescription drugs which are being abused more than all other drugs except weed.

You're a cop, right? Do you think marijuana should be legal? Forget about other drugs, just weed.

justincredible;1366843 wrote:You're a cop, right? Do you think marijuana should be legal? Forget about other drugs, just weed.

Bump for response.

O-Trap;1366809 wrote:No more than it does booze. People still do steal money to buy booze, cigarettes, televisions, etc., but I think you missed the point: It WILL stop the black market drug PUSHER from having a market where they are responsible to nobody and respect few, if any, laws.

its naive to think the black market drug pusher will just give up and go away.

How about DON'T try to control them?

What a novel idea.

not controling them doesnt stop people from using them.

justincredible;1366843 wrote:You're a cop, right? Do you think marijuana should be legal? Forget about other drugs, just weed.

100% legal, no. not harsh penalties, but a simple citation/fine works for me(depending on the amount you have, a truck load for example would warrant a little more punishment).

and if i read that article correctly, its still not 100% legal in Portugal.

Glory Days;1367540 wrote:100% legal, no. not harsh penalties, but a simple citation/fine works for me(depending on the amount you have, a truck load for example would warrant a little more punishment).

and if i read that article correctly, its still not 100% legal in Portugal.

Glory Days;1367532 wrote:its naive to think the black market drug pusher will just give up and go away.

Of course. It's not like we have historical precedent or anything. I mean, bootleggers and speakeasy owners are still running rampant, so I guess drug runners wouldn't go away either.

Glory Days;1367532 wrote: not controling them doesnt stop people from using them.

And why do you think that people should be stopped from using them? Once more, I call alcohol to the stand.