Been a handful of college wrestlers who's career ended short because of an injury.

O-Trap;1352494 wrote:I don't really care if you think money makes everything better, but it's silly to apply that to everyone.

Would you, then, also trade places with one of the Kardashians? One of the characters from Jersey Shore? They're wealthy by your standards, I hear.

I didn't say money makes everything better, but I think you guys drastically overrate being a "national joke". I'd bet most people have done more stupid or embarassing things around friends and family, and that's a lot tougher to deal with than people you don't know, never or will never meet, thinking you're a joke. Yet, the vast majority of people are able to deal with far worst things in their lives with people around them (drug addiction, spousal abuse, etc..). Or how about being CEO of a big company and running into the ground, costing hundreds of people their jobs? I have to LMFAO at people thinking Buckner booting a baseball is some sort of massive tragedy or emotional blackhole

Bill Buckner's boot doesn't begin to make his money unappealing (or that he got to play a game at a high level for 20 years). The Kardshinians, Jersey Shore, etc...well I actually wouldn't want to be those idiots/deuchbags. I would be willing to bet Buckner is quite happy and content in his personal and family life.

http://radioboston.wbur.org/2011/07/11/bill-buckner-is-back
So Buckner left New England and eventually settled in Idaho, where he could live peacefully with his family, fish and hunt — and get away from the relentless reminders about that one error.
“When I missed the ground ball,” he said, “my first thought was, ‘Wow, I get to play in the seventh game of the World Series. We’ll get ‘em tomorrow.’”
Buckner is grateful to Red Sox fans who gave him an emotional ovation when he returned to Fenway Park for the season opener in 2008.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2615471
"It just amazes me. I don't quite get it. I have come to the understanding that it is here to stay, so I try to look at it in a positive way," Buckner said. "Everybody still remembers me, they say, 'Yeah, he was the guy that made the error, but he was a pretty


Yeah, he was really devastated by that play.

gut;1352505 wrote:Yeah, he was really devastated by that play.

I never said he was. It's great that he has come to terms with it, but not everyone is like that. That's my point. To suggest that all people would, or even should, react the same way to such a historically recognized blunder is ignorant. It would be no different to suggest that all those northern Japanese people I was referencing earlier would all prefer the stress of living as an American making $50K a year. It's a simplistic view. People who are just looking for the payday aren't going to mind at all.

People who prioritize other things, however, will quite possibly mind. It's infantile to think that they're fine just because they're wealthy, that the struggles associated with their unique situations are all salved with stacks of hundred dollar bills. Even the language Buckner uses is that he has had to "come to the understanding" that it's not going anywhere and that he has to "try" to look at it in a positive way. After this many years, that's probably easier to do, but even the terminology he uses indicates that it has been a process over time. I doubt he was so apathetic about costing his team (his "company") the game that day or in the months that followed, when he was vilified by his own fan base.

And you even admit that you wouldn't take the Kardashians' or the Jersey Shore cast's money in exchange for their lives. So is it just that you're willing to live with being an athletic punchline but not a social one? That's great. Good for you. Not everyone is going to be that way, though. There are inevitably some who love being the best at what they do enough that something like the Buckner boot would make them feel like they're on par with how you view the "idiots/douchebags."

It's naive to think otherwise.

Ironman92;1351898 wrote:Buckner for 3 reasons....

His career is defined by that play.....and he was a hell of a player for a very long time with enough hits and doubles to be in the HOF

All year long they used a defensive replacement for him late in the games.

Mookie beats him to 1st....Mookie could fly, was batting lefty and pitcher didn't get a good enough jump to beat him.

Well said Ironman ... many people also blame Buckner for losing that game, when in fact that game would have gone into extra innings (the game was tied 5-5 when that play occurred). Why does Stanley not get more flack for uncorking that wild pitch?

Ironically, the Buckner and Norwood plays each helped my favorite teams win titles. That being said, my answer is clearly Buckner -- not only because of the ramifications of his error, but also because of the class in which he handled himself after the fact and continues to do so today. Never met him, but he seems like a really great guy.

PS, my honorable mention is Donnie Moore ... the HR he gave up in '86 cost the Angels the AL Pennant, and he eventually took his own life. Not condoning his sad decision to commit suicide, but obviously that career moment was devastating.

O-Trap;1352507 wrote:I never said he was. It's great that he has come to terms with it, but not everyone is like that. That's my point. To suggest that all people would, or even should, react the same way to such a historically recognized blunder is ignorant. It would be no different to suggest that all those northern Japanese people I was referencing earlier would all prefer the stress of living as an American making $50K a year. It's a simplistic view. People who are just looking for the payday aren't going to mind at all.

Dude, it's a fucking game. Most people have to deal with more tragic/personal stuff in their daily lives. If booting a ball in game 6 is the worst thing that ever happened to Buckner he truly is blessed. Nobody died, nobody's life was ruined. Really not all that traumatic of an event to have to persevere with. So do I feel sorry for him? Hell no, if that's the worst that happens to him he's very fortunate, with a boatload of money to boot [pun intended].

There are lots of things people can't deal with, so you're strawman that some people couldn't handle that is pointless. If that leads someone to commit suicide, something actually more serious/tragic probably would have done the job anyway. Buckner clearly understands - as probably the vast majority do who played - that shit happens. It doesn't define his career for him, or erase all the joys and highlights for him. I really don't know why you would expect otherwise.

gut;1352514 wrote:Dude, it's a fucking game. Most people have to deal with more tragic/personal stuff in their daily lives. If booting a ball in game 6 is the worst thing that ever happened to Buckner he truly is blessed. Nobody died, nobody's life was ruined. Really not all that traumatic of an event to have to persevere with. So do I feel sorry for him? Hell no, if that's the worst that happens to him he's very fortunate, with a boatload of money to boot [pun intended].

It's not just that he booted the ball. It's the ramifications, and those are NOT part of the game.

And come on. Kids playing in a peewee league is a game. Grown men being paid to travel all over the country and having to deal with agents and bureaucrats and politics is not "just a game." To equate the two would be the same as equating running a marketing firm to kids putting up a lemonade stand.

As for nobody's life being ruined, eventually that proved true, but I'm betting that for awhile, it seemed that his had been.

gut;1352514 wrote:There are lots of things people can't deal with, so you're strawman that some people couldn't handle that is pointless.

Who said they can't deal with it? I just said they would care about it more than they do going home to swim in their pools of money.

You're like the cow in the fenced in pasture thinking that the grass by the road looks so much better, ignoring the dangers outside the fence. You've never been there, so you can't say you know you'd be fine or you know that the money would make everything all better like a pacifier to a baby.

gut;1352514 wrote:If that leads someone to commit suicide, something actually more serious/tragic probably would have done the job anyway.

Speculation. However, I'm willing to bet that at least some might not have taken their lives if allowed to live in obscurity.

gut;1352514 wrote:Buckner clearly understands - as probably the vast majority do who played - that shit happens.

Talk about a strawman. "Shit happens" is losing a big game. It's not something that results in the entire country focusing on you as an individual, mocking or sending hate mail. That shit DOESN'T happen to most people. That's the point if this thread. Shit happens. I don't particularly bad for people when regular shit happens. Stuff that could turn their personal and professional lives upside down? You bet. I see a distinction there. You apparently do not.

gut;1352514 wrote:It doesn't define his career for him ...

Not anymore, but if you'd asked him in the weeks and months following, I'm betting it did. Hell, when the term "Buckner" starts getting used as a verb, I'd say that's pretty defining.

gut;1352514 wrote:... or erase all the joys and highlights for him. I really don't know why you would expect otherwise.

I never said there existed no joy in his career, nor did I say that nationwide ridicule and all that goes with it would completely erase it. Would you be shocked, however, if it had overshadowed it for quite some time?

If you're a cow who has lived your live grazing on the grass inside the fence, the grass outside it might look better. Doesn't mean it is.

raiderbuck;1351999 wrote:The kid who kicked for Boise State a few years ago. I believe they lost to a Colin Kaepernick led Nevada team that night. The kid missed two crucial field goals. One in the fourth quarter (potential game winner), and one in OT. Boise was a top ten (maybe even 5?) team that year, and for sure would have went to a BCS game. But they ended up in the Maaco Las Vegas bowl. You had to feel for that guy. He missed two bunnies.

edit..Boise was ranked #3 going in to that game.

I remember that game. I hated that kicker.

Tiernan;1352118 wrote:Why becuz you're a doosh?

No because those players are.

O-Trap;1352519 wrote:It's not just that he booted the ball. It's the ramifications, and those are NOT part of the game.

And come on. Kids playing in a peewee league is a game. Grown men being paid to travel all over the country and having to deal with agents and bureaucrats and politics is not "just a game." To equate the two would be the same as equating running a marketing firm to kids putting up a lemonade stand.

As for nobody's life being ruined, eventually that proved true, but I'm betting that for awhile, it seemed that his had been.



Who said they can't deal with it? I just said they would care about it more than they do going home to swim in their pools of money.

You're like the cow in the fenced in pasture thinking that the grass by the road looks so much better, ignoring the dangers outside the fence. You've never been there, so you can't say you know you'd be fine or you know that the money would make everything all better like a pacifier to a baby.



Speculation. However, I'm willing to bet that at least some might not have taken their lives if allowed to live in obscurity.



Talk about a strawman. "Shit happens" is losing a big game. It's not something that results in the entire country focusing on you as an individual, mocking or sending hate mail. That shit DOESN'T happen to most people. That's the point if this thread. Shit happens. I don't particularly bad for people when regular shit happens. Stuff that could turn their personal and professional lives upside down? You bet. I see a distinction there. You apparently do not.



Not anymore, but if you'd asked him in the weeks and months following, I'm betting it did. Hell, when the term "Buckner" starts getting used as a verb, I'd say that's pretty defining.



I never said there existed no joy in his career, nor did I say that nationwide ridicule and all that goes with it would completely erase it. Would you be shocked, however, if it had overshadowed it for quite some time?

If you're a cow who has lived your live grazing on the grass inside the fence, the grass outside it might look better. Doesn't mean it is.

/OTrap'd

What ramifications? Errors are part of the game. Most people, especially those who play, get that. And that's why Buckner said he really doesn't understand why that became such an iconic choke. So for all the hyperbole and exagerration, not that big of a deal for the guy it ACTUALLY happened to.

It's not the end of the world, nor would it end a guy's career. In the REAL world, a doctor or lawyer screws up bad and they need to find a new career. Other people make multi-million dollar mistakes in business and they will be struggling to find a new job.

It's laughable that people think booting a ball is some life-altering, tragic obstacle that is difficult to overcome. It's the essence of hyperbole. It's a game, and booting a ball just doesn't register that high on the adveristy scale in the game of life.

Like I said, if that's the worst thing that ever happened to Buckner saying you feel sorry for him or that the millions he made playing the game aren't worth it is, quite frankly, insulting to many people. I'd much rather live with that "humiliation" than the real pain and anxiety that comes from having to lay people off or fire them.

Cry me a fucking river. Athletes screwing up aren't remotely on the same plan as when many of the rest of us screw up, with hundreds even thousands of lives as collateral damage.

gut;1352550 wrote:What ramifications? Errors are part of the game. Most people, especially those who play, get that. And that's why Buckner said he really doesn't understand why that became such an iconic choke. So for all the hyperbole and exagerration, not that big of a deal for the guy it ACTUALLY happened to.

What ramifications? Perhaps Buckner is asking the same thing, which would be the only reason he wouldn't get why it became so iconic. The ramifications to the team were that his error resulted in them losing the game in the immediate, and the series in the long term. The ramifications to him? Public scrutiny that was FAR beyond what a normal player would have experienced in his tenure playing the "game." Death threats, being heckled and booed by his own fans, being associated with a "curse," going down in history as having your very name associated foremost with a mistake, zero privacy for him or his family, paparazzi everywhere wanting to talk to you about you committing the most costly error in your career ...

Yeah, I don't see ramifications at all. What's a few death threats, after all?

gut;1352550 wrote:It's not the end of the world, nor would it end a guy's career.

Of course not. As of yet, not even the most egregious mistakes have been the "end of the world." Hell, many have not even been the end of his/her career (see the last few decades of presidents and/or congressmen). Doesn't mean they don't keep anyone up at night, and it certainly doesn't mean that personal wealth makes you feel better about it.

gut;1352550 wrote:In the REAL world, a doctor or lawyer screws up bad and they need to find a new career.

In some cases, perhaps. In MOST cases, it doesn't.

gut;1352550 wrote:Other people make multi-million dollar mistakes in business and they will be struggling to find a new job.

Again, you're trying to associate a monetary value to the mistake, as though the amount is necessarily relevant. If I made a five-figure mistake at my last job, I would have been fired on the spot. A few employers ago, they wouldn't have so much as batted an eye at a five figure mistake. The financial amount you're trying to associate with it is of no value to the conversation, because it's completely subjective.

gut;1352550 wrote:It's laughable that people think booting a ball is some life-altering, tragic obstacle that is difficult to overcome.

If you still think that's what I'm saying, then you're missing my point. The action in a vacuum was not what would keep someone up at night. Everyone makes errors. That's the part of the "shit happens" part you were discussing.

However, context gives it added relevance. It wasn't just an error. It was an error in a World Series game that the Sox could have won the series with that allowed the game-winning run while playing for a team that already had talk of a "curse" surrounding it. It was followed by personal and familial interference (death threats not being the least of them) as well as professional ridicule. He kept his job, but you can't even argue that he wasn't a punchline in his profession for quite awhile.

gut;1352550 wrote:It's the essence of hyperbole. It's a game, and booting a ball just doesn't register that high on the adveristy scale in the game of life.

There's that vacuum, again. If we remove all relevant context, you're absolutely correct. However, no professional, athlete or otherwise, has the luxury of doing their job in a vacuum. Costing your team the game and series after a long drought, regardless of whether or not it's an error on defense, a pitcher's hanging curveball hit over the wall, or a strikeout at the plate, is not the same as doing any of those things in seemingly meaningless scenarios. In meaningless scenarios, you're not going to feel like you've let anyone down that you care about. But that's context for you.

gut;1352550 wrote:Like I said, if that's the worst thing that ever happened to Buckner saying you feel sorry for him or that the millions he made playing the game aren't worth it is, quite frankly, insulting to many people.

Actually, the way your saying it, you make the problems of regular people seem trivial, because apparently, they're shallow enough problems that they can just be solves by throwing money at them.

I'd like to think that the things I consider problems are a little more complex than that, and that no amount of money just magically makes them better.

gut;1352550 wrote:I'd much rather live with that "humiliation" than the real pain and anxiety that comes from having to lay people off or fire them.

Apples and oranges. Both are professional struggles, and I don't see any reason to trivialize one by using the other.

gut;1352550 wrote:Cry me a fucking river. Athletes screwing up aren't remotely on the same plan as when many of the rest of us screw up, with hundreds even thousands of lives as collateral damage.

Just how many people in this country do you ACTUALLY think have enough influence in our jobs that our immediate actions affect hundreds or thousands of lives? Politicians and CEOs, perhaps.

And the beauty of when you or I screw up at work, even in a way that gets us fired, is that we can go on in obscurity, not having to have our lives picked through by everyone, not being a top-10 joke on David Letterman, and not having that kind of screw up named after us nationwide.

If you quietly do 100 things right, but one thing wrong that costs your organization in a really big way, do you honestly think that one mistake isn't going to matter? That you're going to just be able to shrug it off? Especially if you actually take pride in your job?

Don't get me wrong. If someone is doing what they do FOR the money, then I can see why money would trump any professional blunders, mishaps, or chew-outs. I, however, take pride in my job, so I suppose I can't relate to that, and it genuinely bothers me when I even make a mistake small enough for only my boss to call me out on it, let alone if I was to cost the entire company something because of it on a national stage. And a million dollars won't change that.

Feel genuinely bad for guys like Lattimore and Tyrone Prothro who have devastating injuries. Also feel bad for someone like Larry Fitzgerald. Has to be the most frustrating thing in the world to have that kind of supporting cast after breaking the norm and committing to the Cardinals.

O-Trap;1352572 wrote: Apples and oranges. Both are professional struggles, and I don't see any reason to trivialize one by using the other.

Absolutely. Buckner in his prime gets another similar job paying as much, if not more. The stiff that screws up and gets fired would be lucky to, and he doesn't have millions in the bank to fall back on.

Errors happen. The timing is unfortunate, bad luck or what have you. But that's why they call it a game, and your continued attempts to somehow make it more than that are laughable. Yes, put it in context. It's unfortunate, unfair to some extent...but he was going to be and is just fine.

Do you honestly believe if you asked people if they would take Buckner's money, and his historical boot, that 9 out of 10 people wouldn't jump on that? For that matter, how many pro athletes, aspiring or otherwise, wouldn't take Buckner's career in a heartbeat?

It IS relative, and aside from being just a game the money DOES matter, because unlike average people Buckner doesn't have to wonder how to feed his family the next day.

And the bottom line is the Sox had a chance to win that game in spite of Buckner's error. They had a chance to win the series in spite of Buckner's error. Which is exactly what he's thinking as it rolls thru his legs. It's not the disaster that people keep wanting to pretend it is.

gut;1352605 wrote:Absolutely. Buckner in his prime gets another similar job paying as much, if not more. The stiff that screws up and gets fired would be lucky to, and he doesn't have millions in the bank to fall back on.

Errors happen. The timing is unfortunate, bad luck or what have you. But that's why they call it a game, and your continued attempts to somehow make it more than that are laughable. Yes, put it in context. It's unfortunate, unfair to some extent...but he was going to be and is just fine.

Do you honestly believe if you asked people if they would take Buckner's money, and his historical boot, that 9 out of 10 people wouldn't jump on that? For that matter, how many pro athletes, aspiring or otherwise, wouldn't take Buckner's career in a heartbeat?

It IS relative, and aside from being just a game the money DOES matter, because unlike average people Buckner doesn't have to wonder how to feed his family the next day.

And the bottom line is the Sox had a chance to win that game in spite of Buckner's error. They had a chance to win the series in spite of Buckner's error. Which is exactly what he's thinking as it rolls thru his legs. It's not the disaster that people keep wanting to pretend it is.

We are getting deep into this. Lol

How about this....I love baseball and Buckner is remembered for the wrong reasons and I feel bad for him. Just because he made a good chunk of money doesn't mean I'm wrong to feel that way. Yeah, I feel worse for 10 million other things that actually matter...but I still feel bad for him.

Kyle Brotzman. The Boise State kicker who missed a 26-yard game-winning field goal in the last game of the regular-season against Nevada in 2010, and then went wide on the game-tying attempt in OT, eliminating any chance the undefeated Broncos had at possibly playing for the BCS national title. Aside from the sick, the dying or the homeless, Brotzman had to be the saddest person on the face of the earth that night.

I felt really bad for myself after Jason Williams missed that free throw at end of the game against Indiana in 2002. I was sick to my fucking stomach.

J.J. Redick finishing with 11 points after getting physically battered against LSU in the 2006 regional semis, never getting a chance to play in the national championship game. Although, again, in that instance, I think I felt more terrible for myself.