karen lotz;1207558 wrote:Explain how they are more deserving then, because they won lesser conferences?

Because they accomplished something on the field while the team that didn't win the "superior" league did not. Objective > Subjective.

queencitybuckeye;1207820 wrote:Because they accomplished something on the field while the team that didn't win the "superior" league did not. Objective > Subjective.

Winning the big east with two conference losses didn't accomplish anything leading anyone to believe West Virginia was deserving of anything in regards to the national championship.

sherm03;1207780 wrote:You are right...most deserving =/= best. But if the ultimate end game is to crown a "true national champion" (which is the main reason why people wanted to switch to a playoff format in the first place)...then wouldn't the best be needed to get that "true national champion?"

We're simply at odds on the idea that we "know" that team X is better than team Y. We do not. And if we don't know, shouldn't fact (a league title) win out over conjecture (the 2nd place team in league A is better than the winner of league B)?

karen lotz;1207824 wrote:Winning the big east with two conference losses didn't accomplish anything leading anyone to believe West Virginia was deserving of anything in regards to the national championship.

Of course it did. They won more games than their competition.

QCB tearing it up in this thread. Nice work.

The Domers just want to protect their team so that Notre Dame has a shot at getting BLOWN out in the playoffs without having to join a conference. Let's just call a spade a spade.

Al Bundy;1207817 wrote:Most sports reward conference or division champs before at-large teams. In baseball for example, the Indians currently have the 6th best record in the AL but would be the 3 seed if the playoffs started today.

But the other sports have enough spots in their playoff system to allow for every conference champion to make it into the playoffs before an at-large team is selected. When there are not enough spots to even provide every conference champion...then the next logical step would be to take the best four teams regardless of conference affiliation.

queencitybuckeye;1207825 wrote:We're simply at odds on the idea that we "know" that team X is better than team Y. We do not. And if we don't know, shouldn't fact (a league title) win out over conjecture (the 2nd place team in league A is better than the winner of league B)?

We will never know if team X is better than team Y. But you are putting a lot of emphasis on a league title. A team that went undefeated (and only lost to another undefeated team in a conference championship game), IMO, would deserve a shot more than a team that lost 2 games during the season but pulled an upset in a conference championship game.

sleeper;1207829 wrote:QCB tearing it up in this thread. Nice work.

The Domers just want to protect their team so that Notre Dame has a shot at getting BLOWN out in the playoffs without having to join a conference. Let's just call a spade a spade.

Again...my feelings on this have nothing to do with Notre Dame. It has everything to do with the fact that I didn't like the idea of the change in the first place. But if they are going to change it...do it right.

Let's think about this for a second. We both agree that Notre Dame has been bad in recent memory. So how would me wanting the four best teams in the country to be allowed to compete in the playoffs benefit ND in any way? Notre Dame has been nowhere near good enough to fall into the top 4 teams. So I have no idea why you keep thinking that me liking ND has anything to do with why I want the best four teams in the country to play for the National Championship.

sleeper;1207829 wrote:QCB tearing it up in this thread. Nice work.

Thanks, I understand the other side of this one, I just disagree. If we believe humans can subjectively decide who the "best" are, why don't we just go back to the poll days?

sherm03;1207838 wrote:Again...my feelings on this have nothing to do with Notre Dame. It has everything to do with the fact that I didn't like the idea of the change in the first place. But if they are going to change it...do it right.

Let's think about this for a second. We both agree that Notre Dame has been bad in recent memory. So how would me wanting the four best teams in the country to be allowed to compete in the playoffs benefit ND in any way? Notre Dame has been nowhere near good enough to fall into the top 4 teams. So I have no idea why you keep thinking that me liking ND has anything to do with why I want the best four teams in the country to play for the National Championship.

How do you determine who is best? Having a conference championship makes you at least 1 one of the best 6 teams in the country; and we know that for a fact since you are better than all of the other teams in your conference.

queencitybuckeye;1207840 wrote:Thanks, I understand the other side of this one, I just disagree. If we believe humans can subjectively decide who the "best" are, why don't we just go back to the poll days?

I understand you're point, but no matter what...there will be a subjective factor to this. If you have six conference champions, all with the same record (highly unlikely...but possible) and 2 mid-major schools with undefeated records against "lesser-competition," someone has to subjectively decide who goes into the four playoff spots. If they can successfully make that call...then how can they not make that call when figuring out the four best teams regardless of conference?

sleeper;1207848 wrote:How do you determine who is best? Having a conference championship makes you at least 1 one of the best 6 teams in the country; and we know that for a fact since you are better than all of the other teams in your conference.

See my answer above. How do you determine who the best conferences are? Having a conference champion only says that you were able to win enough games to put yourself into that game, and able to beat one other team who was able to win enough games to put themselves into that game. It says nothing about how you stack up to the rest of the country and other conferences.

No matter what, subjective thinking has to come into play. Whether it is to decide which of the four conference champions are deserving enough to make it in...or whether it is to decide which of the teams are the four best among the country and are deserving enough to make it in. I would just prefer the teams as opposed to the conference representatives.

sherm03;1207860 wrote:I understand you're point, but no matter what...there will be a subjective factor to this. If you have six conference champions, all with the same record (highly unlikely...but possible) and 2 mid-major schools with undefeated records against "lesser-competition," someone has to subjectively decide who goes into the four playoff spots. If they can successfully make that call...they how can they not make that call when figuring out the four best teams regardless of conference?



See my answer above. How do you determine who the best conferences are? Having a conference champion only says that you were able to win enough games to put yourself into that game, and able to beat one other team who was able to win enough games to put themselves into that game. It says nothing about how you stack up to the rest of the country and other conferences.

No matter what, subjective thinking has to come into play. Whether it is to decide which of the four conference champions are deserving enough to make it in...or whether it is to decide which of the teams are the four best among the country and are deserving enough to make it in. I would just prefer the teams as opposed to the conference representatives.

Pretty easy to determine:

B1G champion: 10-2
SEC ChampionL 6-6(beat up each other up)
Big East champion: 12-0
ACC Champ: 8-4
Big 12 champ: 9-3
Pac 10 champ: 8-4
MWC champ: 12-0

Who do you take? B1G, Big East, Pac-10, MWC. EZ.

Al Bundy;1207817 wrote:Most sports reward conference or division champs before at-large teams. In baseball for example, the Indians currently have the 6th best record in the AL but would be the 3 seed if the playoffs started today.

Most sports have wild card spots because of the fact that you can have multiple good teams in a single division.

ts1227;1207889 wrote:Most sports have wild card spots because of the fact that you can have multiple good teams in a single division.

Little easier when most sports play 100+ games against everyone. This is a 12 game season; none of the good teams play each other.

sleeper;1207866 wrote:Pretty easy to determine:

B1G champion: 10-2
SEC ChampionL 6-6(beat up each other up)
Big East champion: 12-0
ACC Champ: 8-4
Big 12 champ: 9-3
Pac 10 champ: 8-4
MWC champ: 12-0

Who do you take? B1G, Big East, Pac-10, MWC. EZ.

Glad you took some time to look at that objectively... :rolleyes:

ACC: 10-3
Big 12: 11-1
Big East: 9-3 (two teams named co-champs)
B1G: 11-2
Pac 12: 11-2
SEC: 13-0
MWC: 10-2

Using the idea that you have to win your conference, not included for consideration are: #2 ranked team (11-1), #4 (11-1), #6 (10-2), #7 (11-1), #8 (10-2), #9 (10-2), and #10 (11-2).

So who do you take?

And why?

sleeper;1207894 wrote:Little easier when most sports play 100+ games against everyone. This is a 12 game season; none of the good teams play each other.

NFL?

sleeper;1207894 wrote:Little easier when most sports play 100+ games against everyone. This is a 12 game season; none of the good teams play each other.

ts1227;1207935 wrote:NFL?

This.

The NFL should be the standard to compare things here. Does the best team in the NFL win the Super Bowl every year? No, but the team who gets it done in the regular season enough to get there and then in the playoffs. That's how the NCAA should do it.

pnhasbeen;1207991 wrote:This.

The NFL should be the standard to compare things here. Does the best team in the NFL win the Super Bowl every year? No, but the team who gets it done in the regular season enough to get there and then in the playoffs. That's how the NCAA should do it.

The NFL seeds division winner ahead of wildcards.

Al Bundy;1208099 wrote:The NFL seeds division winner ahead of wildcards.

The NFL has enough playoff teams in their format to fit all division winners AND wildcards. That is the biggest difference here.

sherm03;1208105 wrote:The NFL has enough playoff teams in their format to fit all division winners AND wildcards. That is the biggest difference here.

There was a time when they didn't have wildcards. Division winners were rewarded for winning the division.

sherm03;1207903 wrote:Glad you took some time to look at that objectively... :rolleyes:

ACC: 10-3
Big 12: 11-1
Big East: 9-3 (two teams named co-champs)
B1G: 11-2
Pac 12: 11-2
SEC: 13-0
MWC: 10-2

Using the idea that you have to win your conference, not included for consideration are: #2 ranked team (11-1), #4 (11-1), #6 (10-2), #7 (11-1), #8 (10-2), #9 (10-2), and #10 (11-2).

So who do you take?

And why?

#1, #2, #3, #5

Numbers 1, 3, 5 because they won their conferences and #2 over #4 because they're ranked higher as an at large

So LSU, Alabama, OSU, and Oregon

Al Bundy;1208133 wrote:There was a time when they didn't have wildcards. Division winners were rewarded for winning the division.

But there were enough playoff spots for all of the division winners to make it. There was never a time in the NFL when there were not enough playoff spots where each division could not be represented. It's apples to oranges. A closer comparison would be if the NFL was set up exactly how it is now...but there were only 2 NFC teams and 2 AFC teams to make the playoffs. That would mean that 2 division champs would be left out. Then...and only then...would this be analogous.

lhslep134;1208137 wrote:#1, #2, #3, #5

Numbers 1, 3, 5 because they won their conferences and #2 over #4 because they're ranked higher as an at large

So LSU, Alabama, OSU, and Oregon

I think you misread the question. While I can agree with your choices...people on here are saying that you should not be able to make the playoffs because they did not win their conference. So #2 and #4 are not allowed to be chosen. You can only pick the playoff teams based on the conference winners listed.

Let's say our goal is to find the greatest value and we know the following condtions
a>b
c>d
e>f
g>h
i>j
k>l

I don't know which value is the greatest from the given information, but there are 6 values that I can rule out.

Al Bundy;1208241 wrote:Let's say our goal is to find the greatest value and we know the following condtions
a>b
c>d
e>f
g>h
i>j
k>l

I don't know which value is the greatest from the given information, but there are 6 values that I can rule out.

No you can't because you don't know if b>c, or d>e, or j>k. Just because you don't have all the information, doesn't mean you can definitely rule out those 6.

sherm03;1208327 wrote:No you can't because you don't know if b>c, or d>e, or j>k. Just because you don't have all the information, doesn't mean you can definitely rule out those 6.

You know that b, d, f, h, j, and l can't be the greatest value from the given information.