O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 13, 2012 11:43am
Hey, that might be the most eloquent thing Belly has ever posted.DeyDurkie5;1198391 wrote:oh shut up belly.
mofo
/Belly'd
DeyDurkie5
Posts: 11,324
Jun 13, 2012 11:45am
It was dumb.O-Trap;1198394 wrote:Hey, that might be the most eloquent thing Belly has ever posted.
mofo
/Belly'd
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 11:49am
o-trap.
I like your posts, I don't know to respond to every point you have brought up. I'm not about to write a book.
I like your posts, I don't know to respond to every point you have brought up. I'm not about to write a book.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 13, 2012 11:50am
No worries. You're a pretty smart guys, so I'm sure you'll at least give the topic pause.sleeper;1198411 wrote:o-trap.
I like your posts, I don't know to respond to every point you have brought up. I'm not about to write a book.
I've read enough books on the topic and had enough college professors who were published authors, so writing a couple thousand words isn't a big deal.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Jun 13, 2012 11:51am
You are equating atheism to agnosticism and they are two different things. Nearly everywhere you said atheist in this post should be replaced with agnostic and then you MIGHT have an argument.sleeper;1198384 wrote:Interesting that you apply a belief in gravity since you have seen highly correlated evidence of its existence and which no one disputes. You were born with no knowledge of gravity, what it is, how it works, etc; but you now believe it based on what you have seen.
Using this, you were also born an atheist. You had no knowledge of a god or gods and have to be moved with highly correlated evidence to move you from the position of atheist. An atheist is someone who has no seen enough evidence or any evidence to move from said default position.
Is someone who is born in the jungles of Madagascar not believe in gravity? Is not believing in gravity a position of faith? No it isn't. Atheism is a lack of belief. It is the default position, it does not require proof, it does not need evidence.
Equating as such is a terrible way to setup your logic system and is why repeatedly I harp on believers for having a "broken mind". Setting up your mind this way, you are also an atheist. You don't believe in polytheism or the greek gods or thor, etc. Welcome to the club.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 11:52am
Semantics. Way to move the goal posts.jmog;1198418 wrote:You are equating atheism to agnosticism and they are two different things. Nearly everywhere you said atheist in this post should be replaced with agnostic and then you MIGHT have an argument.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 13, 2012 11:58am
Technically, it's not semantic.sleeper;1198421 wrote:Semantics. Way to move the goal posts.
An agnostic gives equal credence to the possibility of the existence and non-existence of a deity or deities. Agnosticism is of the persuasion that "we can't know."
Succinctly:
Theist: There is a deity.
Atheist: There is no deity.
Agnostic: You both assume too much.
Devils Advocate
Posts: 4,539
Jun 13, 2012 12:01pm
I have been known to be anti semantic.:0
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 12:02pm
I fundamentally disagree with the definition of atheism. There are more than two options as far as beliefs go. It's not simple I believe in God or I believe there is no God. That's only assuming monotheism, but there is also polytheistic beliefs as well. That's why the proper defintion of atheism needs to be "a person who lacks belief in gods".O-Trap;1198435 wrote:Technically, it's not semantic.
An agnostic gives equal credence to the possibility of the existence and non-existence a deity or deities. Agnosticism is of the persuasion that "we can't know."
Succinctly:
Theist: There is a deity.
Atheist: There is no deity.
Agnostic: You both assume too much.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Jun 13, 2012 12:08pm
So we all have to use the sleeper dictionary instead of the standard definitions of world views?sleeper;1198442 wrote:I fundamentally disagree with the definition of atheism. There are more than two options as far as beliefs go. It's not simple I believe in God or I believe there is no God. That's only assuming monotheism, but there is also polytheistic beliefs as well. That's why the proper defintion of atheism needs to be "a person who lacks belief in gods".
DeadliestWarrior34
Posts: 3,101
Jun 13, 2012 12:08pm
justincredible;1198259 wrote:
Lol. This.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 12:11pm
I think you are more upset that I'm right and you're wrong. I don't know how that feels, but your reaction is priceless.jmog;1198447 wrote:So we all have to use the sleeper dictionary instead of the standard definitions of world views?
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Jun 13, 2012 12:11pm
As otrap pointed out, it is not semantics to someone who understands the difference between atheism and agnosticism.sleeper;1198421 wrote:Semantics. Way to move the goal posts.
By the way otraps definition of theism includes both mono and poly theism to answer your other comment.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 13, 2012 12:13pm
"Theism" is an umbrella term to describe any worldview that involves a belief in one or more deities. As such, it is a term to define both monotheism and polytheism, just as atheism is used to describe both secular humanism and scientific naturalism. Two different worldviews with something in common: the belief that there is no deity or deities. Both theism and atheism are "umbrella" terms to describe more than one worldview, provided said worldviews fit one particular criterion.sleeper;1198442 wrote:I fundamentally disagree with the definition of atheism. There are more than two options as far as beliefs go. It's not simple I believe in God or I believe there is no God. That's only assuming monotheism, but there is also polytheistic beliefs as well. That's why the proper defintion of atheism needs to be "a person who lacks belief in gods".
It's perfectly acceptable to want a different definition for atheism, but the definition you describe already has a nomenclature: agnosticism.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Jun 13, 2012 12:13pm
Please point out exactly where I was wrong. I have already done so with your posts where you confuse the difference between atheism and agnosticism.sleeper;1198450 wrote:I think you are more upset that I'm right and you're wrong. I don't know how that feels, but your reaction is priceless.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 12:13pm
Then by definition you are an atheist. You do not believe in more than one god. Correct?jmog;1198451 wrote:As otrap pointed out, it is not semantics to someone who understands the difference between atheism and agnosticism.
By the way otraps definition of theism includes both mono and poly theism to answer your other comment.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 12:14pm
I'm not confusing anything. The discussion has morphed into defining atheism. I have presented my side, you have presented nothing.jmog;1198454 wrote:Please point out exactly where I was wrong. I have already done so with your posts where you confuse the difference between atheism and agnosticism.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 13, 2012 12:16pm
Theism:both monotheism and polytheism::mammalia:water-dwelling mammals and land-dwelling mammalssleeper;1198455 wrote:Then by definition you are an atheist. You do not believe in more than one god. Correct?
To suggest that a monotheist is not a theist because he is not also a polytheist is to make the same argument that a water-dwelling mammal is not a mammal because it is not also a land-dwelling mammal.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 12:18pm
Theism: a belief in gods
Atheism: a lack of belief in gods
Simple. Succinct. Accurate on all levels.
Atheism: a lack of belief in gods
Simple. Succinct. Accurate on all levels.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 12:24pm
I just find it absolutely disingenuous that believers want to make atheism seem like a religion or a faith system. It isn't. It's a logical loophole built in for believers to justify their erroneous beliefs as being no different than an atheists position.
Using this logic, we are all atheists because you do not believe in a invisible unicorn controlling everything, or the flying spaghetti monster. Is that a position of faith by NOT believing in those things? No it isn't.
Using this logic, we are all atheists because you do not believe in a invisible unicorn controlling everything, or the flying spaghetti monster. Is that a position of faith by NOT believing in those things? No it isn't.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Jun 13, 2012 12:27pm
Seriously? Come on sleeper you're smarter than that.sleeper;1198455 wrote:Then by definition you are an atheist. You do not believe in more than one god. Correct?
If I believe in one God that makes me a monotheist.
If both mono and polytheists are subsets of theists then I am a theist.
Simple if/then logical conclusion.
GoPens
Posts: 2,339
Jun 13, 2012 12:31pm
Steel Valley Football;1197894 wrote:Then, what made us? Or, who, or what, rather altered our genes to their present form? Either one, if you know, sleeper. Or anyone else.
Go see Prometheus. It explains it quite nicely...sleeper;1197914 wrote:I don't know the answer to that question. No one does.
Evolution isn't really disputed by any credible scientist anymore; although evolution does NOT try to explain how we got here.
J
jmog
Posts: 6,567
Jun 13, 2012 12:32pm
I presented the world view differences between atheism and agnoticism that you keep getting messed up.sleeper;1198457 wrote:I'm not confusing anything. The discussion has morphed into defining atheism. I have presented my side, you have presented nothing.
O-Trap
Posts: 14,994
Jun 13, 2012 12:34pm
What you seem to be wanting isn't the case. Atheism is a belief system that asserts that a deity of any sort does not exist. Agnosticism, the term for a lack of belief in deities, is even a belief. It's a belief that one cannot know, which is the stem of its lack of belief either way.sleeper;1198459 wrote:Theism: a belief in gods
Atheism: a lack of belief in gods
Simple. Succinct. Accurate on all levels.
Theism and atheism fit Aristotelian logical law that states either 'A' or not 'A' at the same time, and in the same respect. One asserts that a deity exists. The other asserts that a deity does not exist. The other option is that neither 'A' nor "not 'A'" can be known. It's a lack of belief in a deity.
Both atheism and theism pose fact claims ABOUT the existence of deity. As such, they are beliefs. Agnosticism refuses to make a fact claim about the existence of deity. As such, it is not a belief.
sleeper
Posts: 27,879
Jun 13, 2012 12:37pm
It's not a simple if/then. You don't believe in polytheism. Does this make you apolytheistic?jmog;1198468 wrote:Seriously? Come on sleeper you're smarter than that.
If I believe in one God that makes me a monotheist.
If both mono and polytheists are subsets of theists then I am a theist.
Simple if/then logical conclusion.