Braves (Beachy) @ Reds (Latos) - game 2

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SportsAndLady's avatar

SportsAndLady

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35,632 posts
May 23, 2012 8:18 AM
se-alum;1179436 wrote:A hitters career doesn't start at the MLB level, and Constanzo hasn't been a good hitter as a minor leaguer over the last 7 years. I think it's fair to say he isn't a very good hitter, and would'nt be here if he weren't a lefty bat.
LAWL nice strawman argument there!!! Argument argument argument!!!!
May 23, 2012 8:18am
Azubuike24's avatar

Azubuike24

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15,933 posts
May 23, 2012 8:32 AM
The Bats suck. What's worse is Willie Harris is actually down in there. Constanzo is terrible. Paul Janish had a serious injury otherwise, by default, he would've been up. The only other options are Daniel Dorn and Chris Valaika. Dorn, I believe is a switch hitter, but he's awful and Valaika is a righty.
May 23, 2012 8:32am
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

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May 23, 2012 9:13 AM
se-alum;1179436 wrote:A hitters career doesn't start at the MLB level, and Constanzo hasn't been a good hitter as a minor leaguer over the last 7 years. I think it's fair to say he isn't a very good hitter, and would'nt be here if he weren't a lefty bat.
He's also a .350 OBP guy for his career which is higher than every current Red's OBP sans Joey Votto and Ryan Hanigan. Look I'm not saying he's the next Babe Ruth. Just saying you can't say "he sucks" based on like 10 at-bats.
May 23, 2012 9:13am
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Mooney44Cards

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May 23, 2012 9:16 AM
SportsAndLady;1179442 wrote:LAWL nice strawman argument there!!! Argument argument argument!!!!
If you have a problem with me calling out people for putting words in my mouth, you can address me, rather than this passive aggressive mocking. If you're not really taking part in the debate, you're just creating noise that is much less productive than the thing that you happen to not like that I do.
May 23, 2012 9:16am
wildcats20's avatar

wildcats20

In ROY I Trust!!

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May 23, 2012 9:17 AM
Mooney44Cards;1179493 wrote:He's also a .350 OBP guy for his career which is higher than every current Red's OBP sans Joey Votto and Ryan Hanigan. Look I'm not saying he's the next Babe Ruth. Just saying you can't say "he sucks" based on like 10 at-bats.

Yes he can. It's his opinion. Opinions are not right or wrong.
May 23, 2012 9:17am
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Mooney44Cards

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May 23, 2012 9:20 AM
wildcats20;1179499 wrote:Yes he can. It's his opinion. Opinions are not right or wrong.
And it's my opinion that he's wrong because his opinion is not based on sound evidence. See how that works?
May 23, 2012 9:20am
Rotinaj's avatar

Rotinaj

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May 23, 2012 9:22 AM
Mooney44Cards;1179493 wrote:He's also a .350 OBP guy for his career which is higher than every current Red's OBP sans Joey Votto and Ryan Hanigan. Look I'm not saying he's the next Babe Ruth. Just saying you can't say "he sucks" based on like 10 at-bats.
He isn't basing it on 10 at bats. He's basing it on the 7 years of minor league ball. Kind of like he said in his post. Doesn't sound to complicated to me.
May 23, 2012 9:22am
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

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May 23, 2012 9:26 AM
Rotinaj;1179507 wrote:He isn't basing it on 10 at bats. He's basing it on the 7 years of minor league ball. Kind of like he said in his post. Doesn't sound to complicated to me.
Except that the statement was made last night, in response to Mike Costanzo striking out. And 7 years of minor league ball was mentioned by somebody completely different.
May 23, 2012 9:26am
justincredible's avatar

justincredible

Nick Mangold

32,056 posts
May 23, 2012 9:31 AM
This looks to be a fruitful discussion.

I see both sides. I mean, Bryce Harper is doing better in the majors than he was in the minors. Sure, he doesn't have a 7 year history of being just okay in the minors. Still, players can improve when making the jump and 10 at-bats is too small of a sample. But, yeah, Constanzo isn't that good. He is a high OBP guy in his career which is something we need more of, though. Seeing the OBP of the Braves top two hitters vs ours is depressing.
May 23, 2012 9:31am
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

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May 23, 2012 9:55 AM
And for the record.....most guys off the bench didn't exactly tear it up at the minors either.

I just get frustrated when people expect so much out of players that aren't exactly supposed to be great. I mean the overreactions when like a 4th or 5th starter has a bad game....they're the 4/5 starters! They're not supposed to be aces. Costanzo is a lefty guy off the bench, he is not going to go up there and get a hit every single time. The guy has TWO sac fly RBI in 11 plate appearances. That's two more sac flies than Drew Stubbs, Ryan Ludwick, Zack Cozart, Ryan Hanigan, Chris Heisey, Todd Frazier, Miguel Cairo, and Willie Harris. That's also one more sac fly than Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips, Scott Rolen, Devin Mesoraco, and Wilson Valdez.

The only guy with more sac flies is Jay Bruce, with 5.

And you can argue all you want about LOL SAC FLIES, but when you're batting .237 AS A TEAM, you sure as hell better be getting sac flies to move runners over when you're not getting a hit the other 77% of the time.
May 23, 2012 9:55am
justincredible's avatar

justincredible

Nick Mangold

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May 23, 2012 10:08 AM
Mooney44Cards;1179519 wrote:And for the record.....most guys off the bench didn't exactly tear it up at the minors either.

I just get frustrated when people expect so much out of players that aren't exactly supposed to be great. I mean the overreactions when like a 4th or 5th starter has a bad game....they're the 4/5 starters! They're not supposed to be aces. Costanzo is a lefty guy off the bench, he is not going to go up there and get a hit every single time. The guy has TWO sac fly RBI in 11 plate appearances. That's two more sac flies than Drew Stubbs, Ryan Ludwick, Zack Cozart, Ryan Hanigan, Chris Heisey, Todd Frazier, Miguel Cairo, and Willie Harris. That's also one more sac fly than Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips, Scott Rolen, Devin Mesoraco, and Wilson Valdez.

The only guy with more sac flies is Jay Bruce, with 5.

And you can argue all you want about LOL SAC FLIES, but when you're batting .237 AS A TEAM, you sure as hell better be getting sac flies to move runners over when you're not getting a hit the other 77% of the time.
:thumbup:
May 23, 2012 10:08am
justincredible's avatar

justincredible

Nick Mangold

32,056 posts
May 23, 2012 10:10 AM
The part about flipping out over a bad game from a 4th/5th starter drives me nuts. Homer Bailey has been pretty fucking good this year yet his two bad games people were flipping out on twitter. He's a 4th/5th starter, he's not going to throw 7 innings and only give up 2 runs every game. Unrealistic expectations drive me crazy. Yeah, he was a top draft pick but that doesn't mean shit. Most of the other pitchers drafted in the first round that year either never sniffed the majors or are already out of baseball. Bailey is doing alright for himself and is probably the best 4th starter in all of baseball.
May 23, 2012 10:10am
karen lotz's avatar

karen lotz

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May 23, 2012 10:16 AM
justincredible;1179533 wrote:Bailey is probably the best 4th starter in all of baseball.
O_o
May 23, 2012 10:16am
justincredible's avatar

justincredible

Nick Mangold

32,056 posts
May 23, 2012 10:41 AM
karen lotz;1179537 wrote:O_o
Okay, probably not, but he's pretty damn good for a 4th starter. He only given up more than 3 runs in 2 of his 8 starts.
May 23, 2012 10:41am
se-alum's avatar

se-alum

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May 23, 2012 12:07 PM
justincredible;1179533 wrote:The part about flipping out over a bad game from a 4th/5th starter drives me nuts. Homer Bailey has been pretty fucking good this year yet his two bad games people were flipping out on twitter. He's a 4th/5th starter, he's not going to throw 7 innings and only give up 2 runs every game. Unrealistic expectations drive me crazy. Yeah, he was a top draft pick but that doesn't mean shit. Most of the other pitchers drafted in the first round that year either never sniffed the majors or are already out of baseball. Bailey is doing alright for himself and is probably the best 4th starter in all of baseball.
No doubt. I'll take Homer having 3 good starts out of every 4 anyday.
May 23, 2012 12:07pm
T

thavoice

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14,376 posts
May 23, 2012 1:23 PM
justincredible;1179533 wrote:The part about flipping out over a bad game from a 4th/5th starter drives me nuts. Homer Bailey has been pretty ****ing good this year yet his two bad games people were flipping out on twitter. He's a 4th/5th starter, he's not going to throw 7 innings and only give up 2 runs every game. Unrealistic expectations drive me crazy. Yeah, he was a top draft pick but that doesn't mean ****. Most of the other pitchers drafted in the first round that year either never sniffed the majors or are already out of baseball. Bailey is doing alright for himself and is probably the best 4th starter in all of baseball.
Becaue of his stuff, and his high draft status, people are going to be tough on him. I have stated I dont want to get rid of him. He has been improving a little bit each year. Even though he was a bit rushed he is still I think now 1-2 games over .500 for his career. If you carefully watch his starts he is making strides and I think will be a mainstay in a rotatio for a long time. WHere at? Well with Cueto, Latos, and maybe a chapman then yeah..h emay be a 4..but a damned good 4.

Oh how us reds fan forget in years past the 4-5 guy in the rotaton was just plain horrid and if they could skip one of them they would. If Leake can continue to turn it around, and It hink he will, this rotatio nwill be solid. I look for arroyo to come down to eary though. Leake is a finesse guy. Maybe was trying to be too cute early on and not attacking the hitters. Sometimes finesse guys need more time to get their stuff right and when it warms up maybe that is helping him
May 23, 2012 1:23pm
Midstate01's avatar

Midstate01

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May 23, 2012 1:43 PM
Homer just needs to stay aggressive. Too often he tries to dance around the plate, then has to throw a fb and gets hit hard. When he's aggressive, he's been really good.

He has a lot of starts, so hopefully I'm allowed this opinion.
/mooneyd
May 23, 2012 1:43pm
Rotinaj's avatar

Rotinaj

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May 23, 2012 2:00 PM
A pitcher needs at least 500 starts before he can be called good or bad. I'm pretty sure it's in the rule book.
May 23, 2012 2:00pm
Midstate01's avatar

Midstate01

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May 23, 2012 2:03 PM
Rotinaj;1179662 wrote:A pitcher needs at least 500 starts before he can be called good or bad. I'm pretty sure it's in the rule book.

Great now he's gonna "call me out" again.
May 23, 2012 2:03pm
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

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May 23, 2012 2:06 PM
If you don't want to talk about the topic and just want to mock me, why are you in this thread? You could easily send me PMs to tell me how terrible of a poster I am. Why shit up this thread any further?
May 23, 2012 2:06pm
Midstate01's avatar

Midstate01

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May 23, 2012 2:12 PM
Mooney44Cards;1179673 wrote:If you don't want to talk about the topic and just want to mock me, why are you in this thread? You could easily send me PMs to tell me how terrible of a poster I am. Why **** up this thread any further?

The last 3 pages were from you taking offense to an opinion. You started the shit storm. Now nobody knows what they're allowed to post.
May 23, 2012 2:12pm
Midstate01's avatar

Midstate01

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May 23, 2012 2:13 PM
And at this point, it's jut a joke to get a reaction out of you. So don't get so excited. We do root for the same team after all.
May 23, 2012 2:13pm
Mooney44Cards's avatar

Mooney44Cards

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2,754 posts
May 23, 2012 2:20 PM
Midstate01;1179678 wrote:The last 3 pages were from you taking offense to an opinion. You started the shit storm. Now nobody knows what they're allowed to post.
Well, I didn't "take offense", I called you out for something you said and you got all butt hurt because you couldn't admit that it was a pretty dumb thing to say, given the circumstances. I have since given further evidence as to why it wasn't a very good opinion, yet all you (and others) do is mock me. I get it, you don't like the way I post.....there's a whole fucking thread in the basement for making fun of me so take it there and quit shitting up threads that are supposed to be about baseball. I have not insulted you once, merely your one opinion. If me calling out your opinion upset you that much that you felt the need to continually mock me, then you have the problem not me.

And since we're all having such a laugh wondering how many plate appearances it takes until you can read anything into a player's stats, here you go:

Offense Statistics:
  • 50 PA: Swing%
  • 100 PA: Contact Rate
  • 150 PA: Strikeout Rate, Line Drive Rate, Pitches/PA
  • 200 PA: Walk Rate, Ground Ball Rate, GB/FB
  • 250 PA: Fly Ball Rate
  • 300 PA: Home Run Rate, HR/FB
  • 500 PA: OBP, SLG, OPS, 1B Rate, Popup Rate
  • 550 PA: ISO
Pitching Statistics:
  • 150 BF – K/PA, grounder rate, line drive rate
  • 200 BF – flyball rate, GB/FB
  • 500 BF – K/BB, pop up rate
  • 550 BF – BB/PA
May 23, 2012 2:20pm
T

thavoice

Senior Member

14,376 posts
May 23, 2012 2:21 PM
I think it was brantley a couple of years ago that was touting how many innings it really takes to pitch, as a professional, before a pitcher really comes into his own. That was including MiLB and the bigs. I wanna say it was like 800 innings or so. Now, most guys never get to that, but he was mentiong a number in that range
May 23, 2012 2:21pm
karen lotz's avatar

karen lotz

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May 23, 2012 2:26 PM
30 starts
May 23, 2012 2:26pm