grodt;1159276 wrote:, I've really been pulling for Ubaldo to be the pitcher we traded for.
Go Tribe!

Ubaldo is what we thought he is. And that's the reason why people complained so much. His career numbers should have impressed nobody before the trade...nor after the trade.

ERA last year with Cleveland, 5.10. this year 5.02. I would send the SOB back to Columbus and stick Hagedone into the starting rotation.

Way to hustle Pronk after a dropped strike 3. When you make 12 million per year or whatever it is, the fans deserve watching you sprint 90 feet.

Footwedge;1159288 wrote:Ubaldo is what we thought he is. And that's the reason why people complained so much. His career numbers should have impressed nobody before the trade...nor after the trade.

ERA last year with Cleveland, 5.10. this year 5.02. I would send the SOB back to Columbus and stick Hagedone into the starting rotation.

He's not who I thought he was, nor what the front office thought he was. I'm guessing that most Cleveland fans weren't really aware of him too much during his time in Colorado. He has been described as the best pitcher the Rockies have ever had and was one of the top pitchers in a strong National League. That's the pitcher I thought we were getting. I honestly thought (again, feel free to call me naive) that his early struggles last year were due to injury and he just needed to get healthy. Clearly now there is something else wrong causing his drop in velocity.

Those who followed baseball closely knew that Ubaldo was not a top of the line pitcher. His numbers suggested that. He had a great first half one year and that was it. I also thought it was telling that the Rockies were eagerly shopping him. Why? He had like 4 years on his contract and was very team friendly. I think they knew they needed to cash in. The guy has just been mediocre since a hot start a few years ago.

Ubaldo is a solid - average pitcher with good stuff and shaky control.

The Tribe really should have targeted Hunter Pence.

Gonna have to disagree with "He had a great first half to one year and that's it" He had a very solid year in 2008(3.99 ERA, 1.67 K/BB, 3.1 WAR). He got even better in 2009 (3.47 ERA, 2.33 K/BB, 5.1 WAR) and dominant in 2010 (2.88 ERA, 2.33 K/BB, 7.2 WAR). For reference, a 5.1 WAR is typically top-10 for pitchers and 7.2 is incredible. Roy Halladay had a 7.4 WAR last season. Remember, these were stats accumulated while playing half his games at Coors Field.

I was surprised to find that even though it felt like his control sucked last year, he had the same K/BB rate (close, 2.31) as he did during his two dominant seasons in Colorado. Even if you split it up between Colorado and Cleveland they're almost identical (2.31 vs. 2.30). The optimist in me sees a guy who's had a fairly consistent K/BB ratio throughout his career and hopes this is just a rough start. However, as has been noted, the drop in velocity is very worrisome and is probably the reason for the sudden drop in K/BB as he can no longer strike out a bunch of guys with his power stuff.

Now many have, I feel correctly, asked "why was Colorado shopping him given all of this? A great young pitcher that had gotten better for 3 straight years and just entering his prime with a friendly contract." I have no idea. It could be a number of things. Maybe they didn't like his attitude after they extended Tulo and CarGo(?) before him. Maybe they knew something we didn't and knew he was going to crash (doubtful). Maybe they were selling high because they were in a bit of a rebuild and he wasn't much good to them during these next few seasons.

All I know is, looking at his track record, I can't blame the Indians FO for making the deal. There was no indication that what he was doing was unsustainable or that he would fall of the face of the Earth so suddenly and so badly.

All that being said, and I apologize for the ramble, Ubaldo better get his shit together because this division seems ripe for the taking and we can't afford these kinds of games every 5 days.

Division isn't ripe for the taking. I'm not getting my hopes up. It's a long season and I expect Detroit to pull away eventually. The Sox may even finish ahead of us.

I'm not buying Detroit yet. More holes then people seem to think.

grodt;1159402 wrote:I'm not buying Detroit yet. More holes then people seem to think.

No doubt they have holes, but the Tribe has more. Detroit has a very good offense and a shaky pitching staff outside of JV.

However, that offense will be enough to win the Central, IMO. It probably won't get them far in the playoffs though.

hoops23;1159405 wrote:No doubt they have holes, but the Tribe has more. Detroit has a very good offense and a shaky pitching staff outside of JV.

However, that offense will be enough to win the Central, IMO. It probably won't get them far in the playoffs though.

All very true, but I just don't think they'll run away with the division, which leaves it up for grabs in my mind.

hoops23;1159327 wrote:Ubaldo is a solid - average pitcher with good stuff and shaky control.

The Tribe really should have targeted Hunter Pence.

Amen to Pence! That's the guy I wanted and I doubt they give up nearly as much for him.

I'm pretty confident that Jimenez is never really going to amount to much as a pitcher. Certainly not a #1 starter.

hoops23;1159327 wrote:Ubaldo is a solid - average pitcher with good stuff and shaky control.

The Tribe really should have targeted Hunter Pence.

sigh....truth

Its going to be a long week. White Sox/Rangers/White Sox.... would be nice to win atleast 2 or 3 of the next 10.

Pathetic, embarrassing display by the Tribe last night...I'm ready for the college football season to begin.

Ubaldo was a solid - average pitcher with good stuff and shaky control.

FIFY...haven't seen it. I'd rather have Gomez or Tomlin on the hill right now.
Velocity is down and he's walking people at a pace of one an inning.

Pathetic, embarrassing display by the Tribe last night...

It doesn't help when Acta trots out the "B" lineup.

HitsRus;1159468 wrote:FIFY...haven't seen it. I'd rather have Gomez or Tomlin on the hill right now.
Velocity is down and he's walking people at a pace of one an inning.



It doesn't help when Acta trots out the "B" lineup.

Which he seems to do all the time.

grodt;1159349 wrote:Gonna have to disagree with "He had a great first half to one year and that's it" He had a very solid year in 2008(3.99 ERA, 1.67 K/BB, 3.1 WAR). He got even better in 2009 (3.47 ERA, 2.33 K/BB, 5.1 WAR) and dominant in 2010 (2.88 ERA, 2.33 K/BB, 7.2 WAR). For reference, a 5.1 WAR is typically top-10 for pitchers and 7.2 is incredible. Roy Halladay had a 7.4 WAR last season. Remember, these were stats accumulated while playing half his games at Coors Field.

Fair enough. But its the NL. And its the NL West. His ERA the 2nd half of his really good year was 3.80. While a sub 3.50 ERA is respectable anywhere at any time. This isnt the 90s. This is post steroids. We had like 20+ pitchers in MLB last year with a sub 3.00 ERA I think. His 3.99 ERA is not good. Thats essentiall 4.00 and I dont think a pitcher with a 4.00 ERA or above is that great. I would take that out of like a 4-5 starter but the top 3 should be under 3.50. #1 should be right around or under 3.00. But thats just me.

His other good year is good though. I will give you that. But he just never struck me as an Ace or top of the line guy since his falloff after 2010.

grodt;1159349 wrote:Gonna have to disagree with "He had a great first half to one year and that's it" He had a very solid year in 2008(3.99 ERA, 1.67 K/BB, 3.1 WAR). He got even better in 2009 (3.47 ERA, 2.33 K/BB, 5.1 WAR) and dominant in 2010 (2.88 ERA, 2.33 K/BB, 7.2 WAR). For reference, a 5.1 WAR is typically top-10 for pitchers and 7.2 is incredible. Roy Halladay had a 7.4 WAR last season. Remember, these were stats accumulated while playing half his games at Coors Field
.

Your evaluation skills in readng baseball stats are not very sharp. The adjectives that you used for each of Ubaldo's years don't match up at all.

For example...a 2.88 is hardly "dominant" in the National League. 2.88 is very good...not dominant. Dominant is reserved for the the low 2 range. Also, in that year, Ubaldo's ERA during 2010 post All Star game was a very benign number...probably around 4.0

And last year, it was pointed out by several posters that the "Coors field argument" no longer exists....since they began freezing the baseballs out there.

The tribe dealt dealt 2 very high number one draft picks, who "dominated" at all levels at the minor league level. And...were primed to enter and contribue to the team IMMEDIATELY.

From a percentage play, it was one of the worst trades ever made in Cleveland history...the only one that I can remember that was worse was when the tribe re-aquired an over aged, falling apart, Rocky Colavito for a "couple of prospects" named Tommy Agee...a "can't miss" that won a barrellful of gold gloves and played in many All Star games....as well as Tommy John. If people don't know how good Tommy John was they shouldn't be reading a baseball thread.

People like Shlep134 can cite any blog they want to manipulate the facts regarding probabilty and statistics. Anyone capable of using a mouse and a computer could see the stats on these players...and conclude the Indians got analized when making this deal....period.

Does anyone...and I mean anyone...think that Colorado would trade Pomeranz...or even Alex White alone back to the tribe for Ubaldo today? Even if the salaries were equal?

Case rested.

I would trade Ubaldo what whatever scrappings the market offers and give the ball to Haggedone. Maybe David Huff will find himself as well. In the meantime, I will track the careers of Gardner, Pomeranz and White...all the while remembering how Tommy Agee and Tommy John did.

Footwedge;1160003 wrote:Your evaluation skills in readng baseball stats are not very sharp. The adjectives that you used for each of Ubaldo's years don't match up at all.

For example...a 2.88 is hardly "dominant" in the National League. 2.88 is very good...not dominant. Dominant is reserved for the the low 2 range. Also, in that year, Ubaldo's ERA during 2010 post All Star game was a very benign number...probably around 4.0

And last year, it was pointed out by several posters that the "Coors field argument" no longer exists....since they began freezing the baseballs out there.

How exactly would you fix my adjectives then smart guy? You want to look at his 2010 stats and say he wasn't dominant? He was in the top 10 in almost every pitching category in the NL, including leading in WAR.

Also, Colorado's park factor has been just as high the past few years as it has ever been. And if it's gotten easier to pitch there, why isn't Colorado oozing with dominant pitchers?

I watched part of that clown show last night and switched the channel.

Footwedge: Don't forget we got Camillo Carreon for John Romano, too!

Footwedge;1160003 wrote:Your evaluation skills in readng baseball stats are not very sharp. The adjectives that you used for each of Ubaldo's years don't match up at all.

For example...a 2.88 is hardly "dominant" in the National League. 2.88 is very good...not dominant. Dominant is reserved for the the low 2 range. Also, in that year, Ubaldo's ERA during 2010 post All Star game was a very benign number...probably around 4.0

And last year, it was pointed out by several posters that the "Coors field argument" no longer exists....since they began freezing the baseballs out there.

The tribe dealt dealt 2 very high number one draft picks, who "dominated" at all levels at the minor league level. And...were primed to enter and contribue to the team IMMEDIATELY.

From a percentage play, it was one of the worst trades ever made in Cleveland history...the only one that I can remember that was worse was when the tribe re-aquired an over aged, falling apart, Rocky Colavito for a "couple of prospects" named Tommy Agee...a "can't miss" that won a barrellful of gold gloves and played in many All Star games....as well as Tommy John. If people don't know how good Tommy John was they shouldn't be reading a baseball thread.

People like Shlep134 can cite any blog they want to manipulate the facts regarding probabilty and statistics. Anyone capable of using a mouse and a computer could see the stats on these players...and conclude the Indians got analized when making this deal....period.

Does anyone...and I mean anyone...think that Colorado would trade Pomeranz...or even Alex White alone back to the tribe for Ubaldo today? Even if the salaries were equal?

Case rested.

I would trade Ubaldo what whatever scrappings the market offers and give the ball to Haggedone. Maybe David Huff will find himself as well. In the meantime, I will track the careers of Gardner, Pomeranz and White...all the while remembering how Tommy Agee and Tommy John did.

Lol white has been trash ever since he got injured last year. Drew is good but we don't know if he will ever be better than ubaldo. Right now at this time ubaldo> drew. Calling it the worst trade in Cleveland sports is idiotic.

White is trash. He got rocked each outing in Colorado, threw in a parting shot to Cleveland and then got hit with a severe DUI. He may never fully recover from his injury either.

Pom has been shaky as well and was skipped for his last start due to tightness in his forearm/elbow. Neither team has really won that trade.

hoops23;1160230 wrote:White is trash. He got rocked each outing in Colorado, threw in a parting shot to Cleveland and then got hit with a severe DUI. He may never fully recover from his injury either.

Pom has been shaky as well and was skipped for his last start due to tightness in his forearm/elbow. Neither team has really won that trade.

Yeah. Colorado might have the edge as far as future potential goes, but either White or Pom kinda has to actually accomplish some success in the major leagues before you can say that Cleveland got trashed in the trade.

Cleveland won. They got a starter for lower dollar amounts. If Pom or White worked out...they may have had to pay them over minimum wage.