I Wear Pants;1149713 wrote:I have never understood this. Why would that be?

To me this idea seems to usually be used to separate people into "true believers" and such. As in, "if he doesn't reveal himself only true believers will believe and if he shows himself everyone will believe". Which seems silly to me. (You didn't say that or insinuate it, just how I've seen it used before, an anecdote)

So how do you reconcile the question of how god came to be and such and why he's seemingly so cool with so many terrible things happening? And since you said the Christian god is the one you believe in do you also believe he is all knowing and all powerful and omnipresent like most Christians? Because if so I can't find any reason outside of he is himself evil for him to create and allow as much bad as there is in the world (and if he is all knowing, all powerful, and omnipresent he would have created and therefore be responsible for everything).

I just don't see how that's a very likely answer. Also please don't take this as me attacking you. I know I'm asking a lot of questions but people like you who seem to have a more cerebral and less indoctrinated belief in Christianity intrigue me.

I touched on this earlier and got no response.

I didn't know God created "evil." And exactly what does "evil" mean? Pain? Suffering? Are there levels of evil? If there are, what levels of evil are acceptable?

Should God just play chess with us? Are we supposed to be God's pawns?

It is a crock of shit, but we don't have to be assholes. pmoney has been nothing but respectful in his explanations of his beliefs I don't see why we can't return the favor to him.

Now I won't be respectful to people who use their religion to discriminate against others. They can go fuck themselves. (Once again I don't think this applies to pmoney or necessarily others in this thread either).

OSH;1149716 wrote:I touched on this earlier and got no response.

I didn't know God created "evil." And exactly what does "evil" mean? Pain? Suffering? Are there levels of evil? If there are, what levels of evil are acceptable?

Should God just play chess with us? Are we supposed to be God's pawns?

So we should not thank god for good things that happen then? Because if he is all knowing, all powerful, and omnipresent then he would be responsible for both everything good and everything bad in the world. Either he's to blame for bad things or he isn't to thank for good things.

I Wear Pants;1149719 wrote:So we should not thank god for good things that happen then? Because if he is all knowing, all powerful, and omnipresent then he would be responsible for both everything good and everything bad in the world. Either he's to blame for bad things or he isn't to thank for good things.

This doesn't answer any of the questions I asked.

But why can't we be thankful for good things? It's a blessing that good things happen. Do you tell your parents/guardians thanks for providing food and shelter for you? I do. Why? Because it's a blessing.

Can't things just "happen" with no explanation? I think they can AND do. But just because good things can and do happen...doesn't mean I can't be thankful for them. When bad (or evil) things happen, it doesn't mean I blame God for them...things "happen." Are there times that I think God intervenes in certain instances...absolutely. I cannot say when, where, why, or how...but I think there are some "miracles" that definitely occur.

I Wear Pants;1149718 wrote:It is a crock of shit, but we don't have to be assholes. pmoney has been nothing but respectful in his explanations of his beliefs I don't see why we can't return the favor to him.

Now I won't be respectful to people who use their religion to discriminate against others. They can go fuck themselves. (Once again I don't think this applies to pmoney or necessarily others in this thread either).

Eh, rationality won't work with these people. Giving it to people without sugar coating it is the quickest way to break their minds. Logical loopholes need the bluntness of reason to push them out entirely, otherwise its just a waste of time.

OSH;1149727 wrote:This doesn't answer any of the questions I asked.

But why can't we be thankful for good things? It's a blessing that good things happen. Do you tell your parents/guardians thanks for providing food and shelter for you? I do. Why? Because it's a blessing.

Can't things just "happen" with no explanation? I think they can AND do. But just because good things can and do happen...doesn't mean I can't be thankful for them. When bad (or evil) things happen, it doesn't mean I blame God for them...things "happen." Are there times that I think God intervenes in certain instances...absolutely. I cannot say when, where, why, or how...but I think there are some "miracles" that definitely occur.

Ok so god is to be praised for the good things why is he not also responsible for the bad things?

Before we discuss this more I need to know whether you believe god to be all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent.

sleeper;1149730 wrote:Eh, rationality won't work with these people. Giving it to people without sugar coating it is the quickest way to break their minds. Logical loopholes need the bluntness of reason to push them out entirely, otherwise its just a waste of time.

I'd disagree here, no one really listens to "the things you think are most important in life are all retarded and you're stupid for following them".

It's far better to politely and calmly address inconsistencies within religion as well as points where the different religions/denominations of religion are factually incorrect.

I Wear Pants;1149733 wrote:Ok so god is to be praised for the good things why is he not also responsible for the bad things?

Before we discuss this more I need to know whether you believe god to be all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent.

Do you say thanks to your parents for presents at Christmas or your birthday? Why? Those are good things. Why praise them for that?

God is responsible for all the good, atheists are the responsible for all the bad.

That is what they are teaching in churches now. Let's just call religion what it is, a cult. It's a cult; there's no way around it.

I Wear Pants;1149734 wrote:I'd disagree here, no one really listens to "the things you think are most important in life are all retarded and you're stupid for following them".

Yes they do. Subconsciously it does. Keep pushing, eventually it'll work.

OSH;1149735 wrote:Do you say thanks to your parents for presents at Christmas or your birthday? Why? Those are good things. Why praise them for that?

Because they are responsible for them, they provided them. If my parents were to bring upon something negative I would certainly place the blame upon them as well.

I don't see your point.

sleeper;1149712 wrote:Why does something have to create it? Why is that "something" the Christian God? If you say "God did it", don't you have to make the even greater leap to assume something greater created that God? And so on and so on.

I've said it before and I'll say again. Religion is for the weak who have no money, no intelligence, and want to feel special or that if they dedicate their boring pathetic lives to "god" that they will be rewarded after they die. It's an adult fairy tale and luckily for people like me, it's losing its grasp on the minds of the people slowly but surely. Once we put these fairy tales behind us, then we can start solving big boy problems that God is too lazy to solve.

Like I said, next time you get sick, just pray. Let me know how that works out for you. LOL

I understand you just received your atheism 101 online certificate. It is obvious you cannot debate without insults which is usually the first sign of a lack of intelligence.

Why does something have to create it? Because all scientific data says that the Universe is not eternal. Now that something some people will say is God, some will say the Big Bang, some will say something else but there is little doubt that it was created somehow by something.

As for your second point, lets just take God out for a second. If you believe that basic law that something does not come from nothing so if the Big Bang is true, something had to create it, therefore something would have had to create the something that created the Big Bang and you can see where that leads to, a never ending cycle. So at some point there would have to be something that is uncaused and uncreated and just simply exists. Something would have to be eternal. Whether the Universe is eternal which all evidence suggests it is not, then something would have to be ever existing. What that is, I am open to debate.

As for lacking intelligence and money if you believe in Religion that is leap that a Logical and rational person would not make as there are plenty of rich religous people out there. There are also plenty of intelligent religous people out there including the guy you support on the Political forums who has both money and is intelligent. Also I consider myself to have some intelligence and I am pretty well off in the money department as I am completely debt free except for my home.

And your last statement, I was sick, I was diagnosed with Cancer two years ago. I know that God did not cure me, I know that my Dr. did and that finding it early did and I have been clear every since with a very low chance of it ever coming back. Thats why I have said on multiple occassions that I don't believe God picks and chooses who to help or what prayers to answer.

I Wear Pants;1149739 wrote:Because they are responsible for them, they provided them. If my parents were to bring upon something negative I would certainly place the blame upon them as well.

I don't see your point.

We are given the opportunity for life. Why not give praise when good things happen? They are blessings. There is no guarantee that we will have blessings in our lives...so why not give thanks where we can? It shows appreciation. It shows adoration. It shows LOVE.

We don't have to get presents for holidays from our parents. They are blessings. They may be responsible or they may have provided them...but they don't HAVE to. They do because they love. Heck, we do soooooooo many bad things as kids and our parents still love us -- and continuously bless us.

We aren't always fortunate to get blessings from God, so why not continue to show love and adoration with the good things that happen?

This isn't a debate. Nice try though. If it was a true debate, the believers would be laughed off the stage for invoking "faith" as evidence.

OSH;1149742 wrote:We are given the opportunity for life. Why not give praise when good things happen? They are blessings. There is no guarantee that we will have blessings in our lives...so why not give thanks where we can? It shows appreciation. It shows adoration. It shows LOVE.

We don't have to get presents for holidays from our parents. They are blessings. They may be responsible or they may have provided them...but they don't HAVE to. They do because they love. Heck, we do soooooooo many bad things as kids and our parents still love us -- and continuously bless us.

We aren't always fortunate to get blessings from God, so why not continue to show love and adoration with the good things that happen?

Your analogy is flawed. If our parents cause harm to us or allow bad/evil things to happen we would absolutely hold them responsible for them. Yet you don't do that with god.

OSH;1149742 wrote:We are given the opportunity for life. Why not give praise when good things happen? They are blessings. There is no guarantee that we will have blessings in our lives...so why not give thanks where we can? It shows appreciation. It shows adoration. It shows LOVE.

We don't have to get presents for holidays from our parents. They are blessings. They may be responsible or they may have provided them...but they don't HAVE to. They do because they love. Heck, we do soooooooo many bad things as kids and our parents still love us -- and continuously bless us.

We aren't always fortunate to get blessings from God, so why not continue to show love and adoration with the good things that happen?

What does this have to do with religion? This is such a joke. "Good things happen to good people so they are blessings and god exists LOL" I mean the believer arguement has so many holes it in the sink should have sunk ages ago. When will people grow up?

As for lacking intelligence and money if you believe in Religion that is leap that a Logical and rational person would not make as there are plenty of rich religous people out there. There are also plenty of intelligent religous people out there including the guy you support on the Political forums who has both money and is intelligent. Also I consider myself to have some intelligence and I am pretty well off in the money department as I am completely debt free except for my home.

That is the exception not the rule. A lot of people fake religious belief because its a cheap effective way to get votes and influence. Just say you are for "God" and people(read: morons with no money and IQ's below average) eat that shit right up. They won't even care what else the other person has to say. How does it feel to be so easily hoodwinked for invoking something as irrelevant as religious belief?

I Wear Pants;1149744 wrote:Your analogy is flawed. If our parents cause harm to us or allow bad/evil things to happen we would absolutely hold them responsible for them. Yet you don't do that with god.

Yeah, if our parents neglect or abuse us...of course they would be responsible. But, if we do something wrong (like break a window)...do we not deserve a punishment? And our parents may or may not punish us. Regardless of the "punishment," we'll still end up being loved and given blessings. Regardless of the size of gift, we are thankful and blessed.

We are born sinners, so...we technically should be "punished" because we are "bad." We don't learn to be "bad." We know "bad" early. But, God doesn't "punish" us. We still get blessings. We still have the opportunity for salvation from that "badness." No matter how "bad" we are (even though "bad" is "bad," there is no "bad-ladder")...we still get blessings that we don't deserve.

By the way...it is impossible to write a reply while Bones is fighting!

OSH;1149751 wrote:Yeah, if our parents neglect or abuse us...of course they would be responsible. But, if we do something wrong (like break a window)...do we not deserve a punishment? And our parents may or may not punish us. Regardless of the "punishment," we'll still end up being loved and given blessings. Regardless of the size of gift, we are thankful and blessed.

We are born sinners, so...we technically should be "punished" because we are "bad." We don't learn to be "bad." We know "bad" early. But, God doesn't "punish" us. We still get blessings. We still have the opportunity for salvation from that "badness." No matter how "bad" we are (even though "bad" is "bad," there is no "bad-ladder")...we still get blessings that we don't deserve.

By the way...it is impossible to write a reply while Bones is fighting!

Lol.

"We are born sinners". If god created everything then he created that sin and created us with it. It would therefore be his responsibility.

You'll probably QQ more for using a pic again but this is pretty much your argument right now.

I Wear Pants;1149753 wrote:Lol.

"We are born sinners". If god created everything then he created that sin and created us with it. It would therefore be his responsibility.

You'll probably QQ more for using a pic again but this is pretty much your argument right now.

The idea of being born with sin goes clear back to the Garden of Eden story/analogy. The idea of "original sin." It originated with the Fall of Man -- that is, Adam and Eve's decision to go against God's word. Their choice then caused the "knowledge of good/evil." The "original sin" according to Augustine was inherited from the "guilt of Adam." It really is nothing saying "God gives everyone sin."

And who's being childish? It's not my fault you couldn't handle getting "called out" on a meme that was WAY off. It wasn't funny. It was inaccurate and illiterate. It's not my fault you can't handle being called out after trying to prove a point that missed, big time. But...to the new pic...I say praise God always and in everything. I can, why not? My life is good...even in its worst days my life is good. If I were being abused or neglected, would I be questioning God? I can completely understand how people would. There HAS to be a point where someone says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" I have no problems with that. Why should I? Sometimes bad things happen...and we go to God, no matter what.

But god set up that stupid Garden of Eden scenario. And if you believe god is all knowing then you believe he knew that they would eat the apple. If you believe god is all knowing then you believe that god knew what was going to happen so you believe that he gave us sin. He set up the system and created that therefore he's responsible. God created sin. There's no getting around it.

It's ridiculous to give praise to god for everything good and say it's all due to him and ignore all the bad saying "well that wasn't him" or something like that.

I still don't see how that original picture was inaccurate. Person got called bald. People got killed by bears. Unless you're upset because the passage doesn't say "and then god sent bears to murder them". Because that's true, but it was still trying to say "if you do x bad things will happen to you". Which is nuts.

The Christian god is an egomoniacle vindictive dick. Really the only way to look at it if you believe what the Bible says (that he's all knowing, all powerful, and omnipresent and yet still creates tremendous suffering and sends apparently millions to be tortured for all eternity). And before you pull out the bullshit "but god doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves". Yes he does, if god created everything then he created heaven and hell and the systems governing who gets in and who doesn't and also created people that would fall into each of those categories (heaven bound and hell bound).

I Wear Pants;1149761 wrote:But god set up that stupid Garden of Eden scenario. And if you believe god is all knowing then you believe he knew that they would eat the apple. If you believe god is all knowing then you believe that god knew what was going to happen so you believe that he gave us sin. He set up the system and created that therefore he's responsible. God created sin. There's no getting around it.

God being all-knowing could mean that He knows ALL scenarios. He could've known the scenario that happened OR the scenario(s) that didn't happen. That doesn't mean he created sin. He created people with the opportunity to make a decision -- know Him or essentially "know more than Him" (in my terms). There's nothing wrong with the Garden of Eden scenario...in my opinion...it's also no different than what we face today. We could either know Him or believe we "know more than Him."

OSH;1149765 wrote:God being all-knowing could mean that He knows ALL scenarios. He could've known the scenario that happened OR the scenario(s) that didn't happen. That doesn't mean he created sin. He created people with the opportunity to make a decision -- know Him or essentially "know more than Him" (in my terms). There's nothing wrong with the Garden of Eden scenario...in my opinion...it's also no different than what we face today. We could either know Him or believe we "know more than Him."

That's such a load of shit.

It's putting a different face on the same thing. He still would be creating people that he knew wouldn't "know him" and thus would be tortured eternally. Not very nice.

That does mean he created sin too. If god created and is responsible for everything then he created sin. And even if he didn't create sin (though now you need to make up another magical being to create that) if he is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent and he finds "sin" to be bad then he should get rid of it. Especially if the alternative is torturing people forever.

I Wear Pants;1149769 wrote:That's such a load of ****.

It's putting a different face on the same thing. He still would be creating people that he knew wouldn't "know him" and thus would be tortured eternally. Not very nice.

That does mean he created sin too. If god created and is responsible for everything then he created sin. And even if he didn't create sin (though now you need to make up another magical being to create that) if he is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent and he finds "sin" to be bad then he should get rid of it. Especially if the alternative is torturing people forever.

Who said the alternative is torturing people forever?

Again, He created people for the opportunity to know Him or not know Him. He gave them freedom of choice (i.e., free will). Their choice (will) was to not know Him. Because of that...their guilt caused this "inherited original sin." God didn't create mankind for him to play chess with -- I've already stated that. If he were to take sin (i.e., choice) away, then we are pawns. That means we have no choice in knowing Him or not knowing him. We are either chosen by Him or not chosen by Him -- this is not what I think...although some people do think this way.

We have the opportunity to choose or reject Him. If we were created without the opportunity to choose, then we have no idea what "good" or what "evil" is. We wouldn't be having this conversation because there'd be no such thing to talk about.

When a baby is growing up, he/she is "bad." They don't learn how to lie. They don't learn how to not share. They KNOW those things. Why? Why don't they know good from bad? Why do they have to be taught it?

OSH;1149774 wrote:Who said the alternative is torturing people forever?

Again, He created people for the opportunity to know Him or not know Him. He gave them freedom of choice (i.e., free will). Their choice (will) was to not know Him. Because of that...their guilt caused this "inherited original sin." God didn't create mankind for him to play chess with -- I've already stated that. If he were to take sin (i.e., choice) away, then we are pawns. That means we have no choice in knowing Him or not knowing him. We are either chosen by Him or not chosen by Him -- this is not what I think...although some people do think this way.

We have the opportunity to choose or reject Him. If we were created without the opportunity to choose, then we have no idea what "good" or what "evil" is. We wouldn't be having this conversation because there'd be no such thing to talk about.

When a baby is growing up, he/she is "bad." They don't learn how to lie. They don't learn how to not share. They KNOW those things. Why? Why don't they know good from bad? Why do they have to be taught it?

So how about people who have never heard of the Christian god? How about them?

Or what about people who grow up Muslim and are indoctrinated to believe in the Muslim faith? How is that any different then the Christian equivalent?

A just god would not punish people for not "knowing" him when there's not any good evidence for his existence other than one ancient book who's validity is not without question.

And your non-chess scenario sounds more like a game to me. God created man so he could see who praises him and who doesn't and he rewards those that believe/praise him greatly and eternally punishes those that don't. Seems like the most vindictive and egomaniacle thing I can think of.

Then there's the whole problem that there is zero evidence to support what you just said.