Mooney44Cards;929266 wrote:Ya if this is your response to someone who is trying to find some common ground and be civil, I could never convince you of anything ever so I wasn't really talking to you to begin with.

Glory Days doesn't want to be civil. He wants to invade anyone that disagrees and bomb everyone to bring peace and democracy to the world.

Manhattan Buckeye;929271 wrote:"What's so liberal about wanting to hold Wall Street accountable for the financial crisis?"

Because it ignores the government's (particularly the current administration's) failure in the crisis.

Again, if the DEMS support this, they've gone full retard.

Again, why are you pointing the figure at this administration or that administration as if they are different? Republicans and democrats are both to blame.

I Wear Pants;929281 wrote:Acknowledging that Wall Street has played a hand in this crisis doesn't mean nothing else did. You completely ignoring that Wall Street had anything to do with the crisis is a bit ridiculous.

When have I ever ignored that?

I'm just pointing out the idiocy in these people. They are uneducated, poorly spoken and have nothing better to do than chant rambling themes?

These people are clowns, and they are the DEMs' hope for '12?

Mooney44Cards;929285 wrote:Again, why are you pointing the figure at this administration or that administration as if they are different? Republicans and democrats are both to blame.

1) Incompetent administration of ARRA

2) Healthcare bill no one wanted, and yet to have helped anyone

3) Dodd-Frank

4) Consistently blaming the party not in power for the failures of 1-3 above

5) Increasing our debt as a result of 1-3

6) Failing to live up to the hope promised (I admit this is a stretch, we should have known better).

Manhattan Buckeye;929286 wrote:When have I ever ignored that?

I'm just pointing out the idiocy in these people. They are uneducated, poorly spoken and have nothing better to do than chant rambling themes?

These people are clowns, and they are the DEMs' hope for '12?

Any time the subject is brought up you ignore it. If someone tries to talk about what Wall Street did wrong it's instantly that they are playing class warfare or that they are ignoring the government problem. Never is there actually a discussion of what's wrong with Wall Street.

And you're painting these people with an extremely large and many times inaccurate brush. The people in that video linked were more than silly. But that doesn't make everyone at these protests equally ridiculous nor does it mean that those silly people can't have stumbled upon some real gripes with the way things have been going in this country.

gut;929278 wrote:I score it approximately:

Fed: 25%
other Central Banks: 15%
FNMA/FMAC: 20%
Wall Street: 20%
Washington: 10%
home owners: 10% (imagine that! flipping, buying more than they can afford, not understanding their mortgage...they know who they are)

This is mostly fair, but I think Washington is a bit more to blame than 10%, failing to regulate credit default swaps, rampant speculation, and lack of oversight of the Wall Street credit rating agencies.

Home owners are almost certainly to blame, but there are stupid people in the world who sometimes need to be protected from themselves. Say what you will but predatory lending did occur.....and when you're stupid and seemingly smart people are loaning you money and telling you that you can afford something its immoral and those people should be faulted as well. Ignorance is never an excuse, but neither is "F you, got mine....shoulda been smarter/worked harder/done your homework" an excuse for taking advantage of another human being.

Manhattan Buckeye;929289 wrote:1) Incompetent administration of ARRA

2) Healthcare bill no one wanted, and yet to have helped anyone

3) Dodd-Frank

4) Consistently blaming the party not in power for the failures of 1-3 above

5) Increasing our debt as a result of 1-3

6) Failing to live up to the hope promised (I admit this is a stretch, we should have known better).

He campaigned on it and was easily elected. I'd say people wanted it.

Mooney44Cards;929295 wrote:This is mostly fair, but I think Washington is a bit more to blame than 10%, failing to regulate credit default swaps, rampant speculation, and lack of oversight of the Wall Street credit rating agencies.

Home owners are almost certainly to blame, but there are stupid people in the world who sometimes need to be protected from themselves. Say what you will but predatory lending did occur.....and when you're stupid and seemingly smart people are loaning you money and telling you that you can afford something its immoral and those people should be faulted as well. Ignorance is never an excuse, but neither is "F you, got mine....shoulda been smarter/worked harder/done your homework" an excuse for taking advantage of another human being.

Remember Mooney, Manhattan and most of the rest hear believe that fairness is something only the weak want. Might makes right.

"Any time the subject is brought up you ignore it. If someone tries to talk about what Wall Street did wrong it's instantly that they are playing class warfare or that they are ignoring the government problem. Never is there actually a discussion of what's wrong with Wall Street. "

Are you Footwedge?

Why are you posting arguments in my mouth?

Do you know a damn about wall street or even corporate finance? What exactly do you know?

Let me guess, you just want your student loans forgiven, is that it? What POS school did you attend that left you jobless?

Calm down meow. Once again, you cannot even say "wall street is partially to blame for the financial crisis". Instantly go right after me being a student, saying I went (go) to a POS school, am unemployed, etc.

Talk about class warfare. Conservatives would do well to not attack students as much as they have been of late. People are going to remember that.

I Wear Pants;929306 wrote:Calm down meow. Once again, you cannot even say "wall street is partially to blame for the financial crisis". Instantly go right after me being a student, saying I went (go) to a POS school, am unemployed, etc.

Talk about class warfare.

Well, aren't you?

Weren't you crying about having to pay student loans earlier?

Manhattan Buckeye;929289 wrote:1) Incompetent administration of ARRA

2) Healthcare bill no one wanted, and yet to have helped anyone

3) Dodd-Frank

4) Consistently blaming the party not in power for the failures of 1-3 above

5) Increasing our debt as a result of 1-3

6) Failing to live up to the hope promised (I admit this is a stretch, we should have known better).

You're going off on a tangent here.....while some people in these protests are chanting for free healthcare, etc. the central message is hold Wall Street accountable. That is after all why they are occupying Wall Street. You can't control everyone and everything that is being said/put on a sign. Nor can you control who joins your cause. So while you may not agree with dirty hippie #4 holding a sign saying "Universal Healthcare for All", nor may you like the fact that unions have joined the cause, that doesn't mean that you may not agree that Wall Street is out of control and sooner or later someone needs to be held accountable.

Manhattan Buckeye;929310 wrote:Well, aren't you?

Weren't you crying about having to pay student loans earlier?

Yes, asking about what people thought about a proposed policy that I read is crying about it. I'm not worried too worried about my student loans because I won't have too many of them (yay scholarships/job/cheap school).

But you're right, there is nothing wrong with wall street or the current student loan situation. Should there be any problems we must always look to the government as their source as they are inherently evil.

Mooney44Cards;929311 wrote:You're going off on a tangent here.....while some people in these protests are chanting for free healthcare, etc. the central message is hold Wall Street accountable. That is after all why they are occupying Wall Street. You can't control everyone and everything that is being said/put on a sign. Nor can you control who joins your cause. So while you may not agree with dirty hippie #4 holding a sign saying "Universal Healthcare for All", nor may you like the fact that unions have joined the cause, that doesn't mean that you may not agree that Wall Street is out of control and sooner or later someone needs to be held accountable.

Much like the Tea Party initially couldn't really help that the hardcore religious and anti-abortion folks latched onto what was initially meant to be focused on government spending (something almost everyone can agree has been too high).

Manhattan,

I guess what I'm trying to say is......you can blame more than one person/group. You seem to be discounting Occupy Wall Street because you think the blame is on the Obama Administration. I don't disagree.....however just because the current administration has made mistakes doesn't mean they should be the only ones blamed/held accountable. Wall Street and the Obama Administration are one in the same. His economic advisers are all Wall Street insiders who will leave office and head back to Goldman Sachs, etc and collect their bounty for keeping Wall Street unchecked/unregulated/unaccountable. Same can be said of GWB.

"But you're right, there is nothing wrong with wall street or the current student loan situation. Should there be any problems we must always look to the government as their source as they are inherently evil. "

And more putting words in my mouth. And even dumber considering I have posted often on the problems of student loans.

Why don't you just create a strawman and attack it instead of me?

Here is my suggestion for your next post:

"MB enjoys raping puppies, along with his corporate cronies and blames the 'librul gubment' for it"

That would make as much sense as your last few posts, and would be more logically accurate.

Meow.

Mooney44Cards;929330 wrote:Manhattan,

I guess what I'm trying to say is......you can blame more than one person/group. You seem to be discounting Occupy Wall Street because you think the blame is on the Obama Administration. I don't disagree.....however just because the current administration has made mistakes doesn't mean they should be the only ones blamed/held accountable. Wall Street and the Obama Administration are one in the same. His economic advisers are all Wall Street insiders who will leave office and head back to Goldman Sachs, etc and collect their bounty for keeping Wall Street unchecked/unregulated/unaccountable. Same can be said of GWB.

Don't you know you aren't allowed to talk about Bush here? Any talking about Bush is playing the Blame Bush card and means you think Obama has done nothing wrong. The logic is infallible.

Mooney44Cards;929295 wrote:This is mostly fair, but I think Washington is a bit more to blame than 10%, failing to regulate credit default swaps, rampant speculation, and lack of oversight of the Wall Street credit rating agencies.

I don't consider Wall Street to blame for the predatory lending, but good point on the credit rating agencies as I had kind of forgotten their role (to be fair, no one really understands MBS and credit default swaps - in the long-run they'll add value, just as the high yield market ultimately has after going thru the S&L crisis).

I'd also maybe group the Fed, FNMA/FMAC and Washington together, so I've given the gubmit over half the blame...I just wanted to distinguish that they defer a certain amount to the Fed, as they should given lawmakers know bubkis regarding economics.

I Wear Pants;929334 wrote:Don't you know you aren't allowed to talk about Bush here? Any talking about Bush is playing the Blame Bush card and means you think Obama has done nothing wrong. The logic is infallible.

While we're at it, all of Clinton's economic advisers were Wall Street insiders too, and they probably did more to begin the housing bubble than anyone (although Bush didn't help).

"You seem to be discounting Occupy Wall Street because you think the blame is on the Obama Administration. "

I'm going to lose my crap.

I'm discounting OWS because I think they are a bunch of uneducated fools.

gut;929335 wrote:I don't consider Wall Street to blame for the predatory lending, but good point on the credit rating agencies as I had kind of forgotten their role (to be fair, no one really understands MBS and credit default swaps - in the long-run they'll add value, just as the high yield market ultimately has after going thru the S&L crisis).

I'd also maybe group the Fed, FNMA/FMAC and Washington together, so I've given the gubmit over half the blame...I just wanted to distinguish that they defer a certain amount to the Fed, as they should given lawmakers know bubkis regarding economics.

I'm not really in the loop here. Could you explain how and to whom the high yield market has added value and how you see credit default swaps, etc doing the same?

That's a real question that I don't know not an attempt at an "I gotcha" scenario.

I Wear Pants;929334 wrote:Don't you know you aren't allowed to talk about Bush here? Any talking about Bush is playing the Blame Bush card and means you think Obama has done nothing wrong. The logic is infallible.

LOL Long before your Anointed One landed in the White House un-vetted (thanks largely to the alleged unbiased professional journalists in the MSM), you lefties had Bush Bashing down to an art form.

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, you're pissed that Bush Bashing isn't effective anymore and even angrier that we rightists have the audacity of calling out BHO for the fraud he truly is.

I Wear Pants;929341 wrote:I'm not really in the loop here. Could you explain how and to whom the high yield market has added value and how you see credit default swaps, etc doing the same?

That's a real question that I don't know not an attempt at an "I gotcha" scenario.

The problem wasn't the credit default swaps themselves, it was that CDOs were sold to investors and rated AAA by S&P even though the lenders knew the loan was crap and the person couldn't afford to pay it. If all parties were honest and had an ounce of integrity, they wouldn't be a problem.

believer;929349 wrote:LOL Long before your Anointed One landed in the White House un-vetted (thanks largely to the alleged unbiased professional journalists in the MSM), you lefties had Bush Bashing down to an art form.

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, you're pissed that Bush Bashing isn't effective anymore and even angrier that we rightists have the audacity of calling out BHO for the fraud he truly is.

I don't get upset that people are upset with Obama. Hell I'm upset with Obama (some reasons we share others I imagine we're on the opposite ends of why we're upset with him).

And much of the Bush bashing was just as ridiculous as the Obama bashing that's currently in vogue with conservatives and I've said as much before. Much like I've never said that Bush was purposefully trying to harm America by getting us into ruinous (IMO) wars. I don't think he was trying to do bad on purpose because I find that would be insane. However I've read from at least a few people on here and other places that Obama is trying to ruin America on purpose. It's ridiculous.

And I'm sure there were people who were saying Bush was trying to ruin the country. I hold them to be equally as insane as I do those that think Obama is purposefully trying to do bad.

Also for the 152nd time, Obama can't really be my anointed one as I didn't vote for the dude.

Mooney44Cards;929355 wrote:The problem wasn't the credit default swaps themselves, it was that CDOs were sold to investors and rated AAA by S&P even though the lenders knew the loan was crap and the person couldn't afford to pay it. If all parties were honest and had an ounce of integrity, they wouldn't be a problem.

Example of a point where capitalism doesn't work because people are blinded by greed or stupidity. In a perfect world the banks would see that they wouldn't benefit from selling such shit bonds but in the real world they'd rather make that quick buck and worry about what happens later.

That's not to say I don't think capitalism is the best model to base things off of. I just think that especially in some of the financial areas we need to be more careful about regulating it (while being sure to not over regulate). Of course this is all probably a lot more difficult than it would seem.