This hit my yahoo newsfeed, an interesting article...I don't know if a class action lawsuit is the right course, but how these schools charge these exorbitant fees is questionable.

http://news.yahoo.com/graduates-accuse-law-schools-scamming-students-021529890.html

Richard Vedder had a pretty good book out a few years back on the cost of college ("Going Broke by Degree", I think). The fighting over the cost of law school is really just a beginning; the most prestigious universities in Canada, for example, cost less than half of what a below-average American college costs.

I've been saying for the past few years that the ROI for college education is dropping off of a cliff. Honestly I think that it's better for most high school students to go to a vocational school for two years, apprentice for a year after graduating, and be liscensed in a trade by 19 or 20. That way instead of spending $200,000 over four years for college, the can begin making $50,000+ a year after only a year or two out of high school. The cost of a college degree has gone up at a much higher rate over the past 20 years compared to the rate of pay for college graduates.

College is a complete rip off.

It's a damn shame I'm dropping hundreds of bucks on books alone every semester.

Debt keeps rising at an alarming rate for college students, and I'm guessing there is A LOT of unpaid debt as well...

maybe people should stop going to colleges they cant afford. kinda like the housing market.

Glory Days;858406 wrote:maybe people should stop going to colleges they cant afford. kinda like the housing market.

And pursuing degrees in areas that have little opportunity and pay. I think I remember reading about a student who went to Columbia for like Music History or something. $200k and offers for like $30k, if he got any. That was historically stupid to take on that kind of debt for that degree.

He received no scholarships from Columbia? Music History majors should have to take Music Theory as well so they can at least do something after college with an instrument.

I had an eighth grade science teacher who went to Harvard and graduated with an engineering degree but decided he'd rather teach. I also had a teacher from Yale who simply wanted to be an eighth grade art teacher. I can't imagine how they managed to pull that off without a mound of debt.

This makes me really appreciate that I currently have no college debt.

Tobias Fünke;858416 wrote:He received no scholarships from Columbia? Music History majors should have to take Music Theory as well so they can at least do something after college with an instrument..

I think Columbia was like $40k a year, plus the cost of living in Manhattan. I think his major was even more esoteric than that, very low paying for what few jobs there were.

If you major in computer science, engineering, law, accounting, or earn a degree in medical science (PA/MD/OD) then it might be worth it.

Any other degree is a crap shoot these days.

I majored in a business related program when I graduated in 1983. The average yearly cost to attend Ohio University when I graduated (tuition, room, meals, insurance, etc.) was around $11,000. Today it's nearly $25,000. At the time, I thought $11,000 was astronomical and I felt like I was shouldering a huge burden when I had to pay back $7,000 in student loans.

But I can honestly say it was worth the investment. Would I be able to say the same under today's rates? I doubt it.

Like someone pointed out earlier, students today are better off picking a technical school with a specific high-demand skill and begin earning good money out of the chute rather than earning a nebulous general liberal arts bachelor degree.

gut;858418 wrote:I think Columbia was like $40k a year, plus the cost of living in Manhattan. I think his major was even more esoteric than that, very low paying for what few jobs there were.

Columbia might have the worst website of any college - it is nearly impossible to navigate. From what I read the tuition for law school is $51,000 per year with an additional $4,000 in fees. If you add in books that is another $1,000. Room/board in NYC is at least $2,500/month or $30,000/annum. That is a cost per year of at least $86,000. Multiple that by 3 plus interest on the loans and there is no way the average Columbia grad can service that debt.

I've always thought that higher education is a money grab in 95% of career fields. All the extra classes they make you take for a Bachelors degree is ridiculous. Most people could be successful in their career field w/ 1 or 2 years of training. Teachers are a good example, do they really need 4 years of college to be able to teach? It only takes 2 years to get an RN license, and they are actually dealing w/ peoples health.

se-alum;858445 wrote:I've always thought that higher education is a money grab in 95% of career fields. All the extra classes they make you take for a Bachelors degree is ridiculous. Most people could be successful in their career field w/ 1 or 2 years of training. Teachers are a good example, do they really need 4 years of college to be able to teach? It only takes 2 years to get an RN license, and they are actually dealing w/ peoples health.

dont forget, teachers here also need a masters degree within so many years.

se-alum;858445 wrote:I've always thought that higher education is a money grab in 95% of career fields. All the extra classes they make you take for a Bachelors degree is ridiculous. Most people could be successful in their career field w/ 1 or 2 years of training. Teachers are a good example, do they really need 4 years of college to be able to teach? It only takes 2 years to get an RN license, and they are actually dealing w/ peoples health.

I do not want less learned teachers. Our education system is shitty enough already.

if you go to college, your dreams will come true.

Glory Days;858406 wrote:maybe people should stop going to colleges they cant afford. kinda like the housing market.

First of all, most people who go to college can't afford the school they go to while they are there, but the prevailing wisdom on higher education has been that taking out loans for school will be worth it because you will make more money after college and be able to pay them off quickly. Unfortunately, the cost of college has skyrocketed (and consequently the amount of college debt people accumulate has gone up), but the average starting pay for a college graduate has barely gone up.

One of the other problems is that many jobs that used to just require a college degree now want a graduate degree, so many people are spending more because they are going to school longer. For those who talked about people getting useless degrees, while that may be true, most jobs that require a college degree just require a degree, not a specific degree. Outside of being a teacher or CPA, very few jobs that require a college degree require a specific undergrad degree.

Another good read:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Mises-Economics-Blog/2011/0810/The-higher-education-bubble-has-popped

believer;858425 wrote:If you major in computer science, engineering, law, accounting, or earn a degree in medical science (PA/MD/OD) then it might be worth it

I can't speak to others, but I can speak with some degree of certainty to law: unless you are going to a top 14 school or are going to a tier 1 school with significant scholarship money, it most assuredly is a terrible financial move. Most people going to law school today are making an absolutely terrible financial decision. Period. End of discussion.

You do most certainly need to be selective about where you go and what you choose to do.

I graduated from Minnesota with a BA in Journalism with about $10k in debt; job prospects in the field weren't great at the time, and I'd likely be moving to BFE North Dakota or Iowa to make $25k a year for my first year or two. I made the decision to pursue an advanced research degree (MS, Applied Communication Research and Market Research) at Boston University - took on another $70k in debt - but have worked for a research consulting firm for 2.5 years and have now make >$70k per year. For me personally, it has been worth it. But if you're pursuing a master's in women's studies or anthropological eastern montana studies, then probably not worth it.

^^^

Sounds like you have a great job, and Boston is a great place to be in school (my wife went to Andover....we've gone back often for weddings, baby showers, etc.), I still don't get the debt thing. $70K for a Masters? Is this typical?

Manhattan Buckeye;858565 wrote:^^^

Sounds like you have a great job, and Boston is a great place to be in school (my wife went to Andover....we've gone back often for weddings, baby showers, etc.), I still don't get the debt thing. $70K for a Masters? Is this typical?

Typical from Boston University. That school is decidedly NOT cheap. If I had to do it again I would probably consider more state-school options (although, in Boston, there really aren't any outside of UMass-Boston, which is a shit school). I will say, without the connections I got there though there's no way I would've had the job I have now (my advisor's wife is one of our VPs) and the other opportunities for positions through alumni were numerous.

Depends on where you go, what you major in, and what your grades are. If you go to OU, major in psychology, and end up with a 2.5, then no. If you go to OSU, major in Mechanical Engineering, and end up with a 3.5, then yes.

sleeper;858630 wrote:Depends on where you go, what you major in, and what your grades are. If you go to OU, major in psychology, and end up with a 2.5, then no. If you go to OSU, major in Mechanical Engineering, and end up with a 3.5, then yes.

That's only half the story ---- if you divide tuition at OU by the average number of beers consumed over 4 years, you are only spending about 25% as much per beverage vs. an OSU student, talk about a value proposition!

Go 'Cats!

hoops23;858392 wrote:College is a complete rip off.

Debt keeps rising at an alarming rate for college students, and I'm guessing there is A LOT of unpaid debt as well...

It's not a complete ripoff. That's blaming the college for what a student should be doing -- his/her own research to figure out what's best for him/herself.

Average undergrad debt is "only" around $20,000 across the nation -- people like me bring that average up .

gut;858414 wrote:And pursuing degrees in areas that have little opportunity and pay.

Agree completely. But, sometimes it's not all about the money. I received my undergraduate degree, in a field that doesn't pay, but I wouldn't trade my debt for the experiences, connections, friendships, etc. that I gained out of my undergraduate experience. I went someplace cheaper to start out with and it sucked...so cheaper isn't always better.

But your statement takes me back to the student has to determine what is best for him/herself. They need to do the research and quit relying on people's "word" to tell them what's best for them.

Tobias Fünke;858416 wrote:This makes me really appreciate that I currently have no college debt.

Enjoy it...wish I could say the same. My wife has zero...so at least we don't have two large debts to pay off.

believer;858425 wrote:Any other degree is a crap shoot these days.

Like someone pointed out earlier, students today are better off picking a technical school with a specific high-demand skill and begin earning good money out of the chute rather than earning a nebulous general liberal arts bachelor degree.

I don't agree at all. Any education is a good education -- sort of. Degrees can get you places. Higher education can get you places. The problem is...people want their money and they want it NOW. I think society has moved us in that direction as well as the government. The economic class system is all screwed up (in my opinion). At 15 years old, you can make minimum wage, at 18-22 you still make the same. When you graduate, you want to be able to make more than minimum wage, but really, there's very little that pay anything more than $10-12 an hour, which may seem like minimum wage to college graduates.

If people are willing to scrounge around a little for their first couple of years out of college, it wouldn't be as bad. But, people want their iPads, iPods, big screen tvs, new cars, buy a house, etc. You simply cannot do that just because you graduate and get a decent job. Save up some money and bank on the future.

krambman;858505 wrote:One of the other problems is that many jobs that used to just require a college degree now want a graduate degree, so many people are spending more because they are going to school longer. For those who talked about people getting useless degrees, while that may be true, most jobs that require a college degree just require a degree, not a specific degree. Outside of being a teacher or CPA, very few jobs that require a college degree require a specific undergrad degree.

The Master's is the new Bachelor's.

But, I don't see many people graduating with "useless" degrees. Yes, there are some, but it all depends on what you want to do. To me, an education undergrad degree is useless...to you, it's not. Why is it useless? Because you don't "learn" how to teach. Teaching is something that is very natural. Yes, you can learn different techniques and such, but overall and undergraduate degree in education is pointless (in my opinion). I'd like to see more people specializing in math degrees, science degrees, English degrees, etc. That way, they become an "expert" in their field that they'd be teaching. I hate seeing teachers with a stinking elementary education degree teaching all the subjects -- the teacher is spread too thin (while, I do realize this is what is required by the public education system...I do not like it).

There are many jobs that require a specific undergrad degree. Just because the job requires it doesn't mean it's actually "needed" though -- like teaching. You can't be a nurse without a nursing degree. A lot of times, you can't go into business without some form of business undergraduate degree. There are some jobs that require "just a degree," but those are few and far between, they are probably entry level positions OR the job will prefer someone with a degree in the field that is being hired as opposed to someone with an unrelated degree.


It seems this higher education talk comes up a lot on here. I like it. Higher education is one of my big interests (my first Master's is in it, sort of, and it's something I work in). While that may mean I am pro-higher education, to an extent, there are many things where higher education fails (mainly all education fails). All forms of education seem to fail the public in being prepared when one has completed their "formal" education process. There's no life skills. There's no budgeting taught (real budgeting). So all these people come out of primary, secondary, and higher education and are expected to "know" how to pay bills, do mortgages, get insurance, etc. That's wrong. It can be taught and it can be taught within the boundaries of the current education process.

As a recent graduate, College is indeed a scam.

If I could go back and redo the past 6 years, I'd go to a trade school in a heartbeat.

dlazz;858778 wrote:As a recent graduate, College is indeed a scam.

If I could go back and redo the past 6 years, I'd go to a trade school in a heartbeat.

could you still get the same job afterwards?