ccrunner609;790567 wrote:Getting a college education is important.

A college EDUCATION is important. A college DEGREE isn't always.

ccrunner609;790567 wrote:Getting a college education is important.

Nobody is saying it isn't important. The question is whether it is worth it.

Getting a good job later in life is pure luck.

College can help you find the job, but there's a lot of limiting factors.

What today's parents don't understand is that college is expensive. If you're making your kid pay for school himself, you aren't being a "wise" parent by teaching them money lessons...you're being a fucking asshole, drowning your kid in debt.

I was lucky to have my dad help me with school and I'm still going to graduate with 17k debt.

I think the way college is set up now is a joke. Sure some of you can try and say the humanities make us well rounded, but at the end of the day we all know that is a load of BS. I could have got all of my accounting classes done in 2 or 3 years, as opposed to 4 with jokes of classes such as weather, geology, music appreciation, and history of film. So instead, I had to go 4 years to get a bachelors, and then another year for a masters because you basically can't get a CPA without one. In the end it was worth it, because I have a job because of it, and because I went to school for free for 2 years, and then my parents paid the other 3. If I had to pay all 5 years, I wouldn't have went to the awesome beach location I did, and probably have some sort of debt to deal with. Not sure how much it would have been worth if I was still in debt because of it.

My parents couldn't afford to help me through college, and I graduated with about $45K in debt. The debt sucks, but I'm glad I paid for it. Too many kids I know graduated with 2.XXX GPAs, took 5 years, and got an easy degree. They didn't really "learn" anything. They partied like hell though.

At the most, I think a parent should make paying for college contingent on grades. My wife's parents did that. She had to pay her parents back for every class in which she didn't get higher than a B-. I don't see a problem with that.

I've completed just four quarters at Ohio State (plus my four semesters at Toledo), but I can honestly say I've only taken three classes that I would say have actually given me something useful to my future/profession. Russian Film, Early-American History only focusing on slavery, psychology, etc have been useless as hell. I'm taking Art Education and Intro. To Reading Popular Culture in the summer to knock out more GEC's. They are fucking pointless.

It's been pretty clear that to me that Ohio State wants to get more money from me than they deserve. They only took my English and history credits from Toledo, I took every undergraduate level geology but they won't knock off Earth Science? I took History of Jazz, but they want another arts credit? I took graduate level classes in history, but History 151 needs to be taken? It's been a joke.

Now I will say that I'm beyond pumped to get back for fall in the Knowlton School, five classes (instead of the usual three for most people) of pure City & Regional Planning greatness. The point still stands, there is so much fluff in the curriculum, I could have earned the necessary components to this degree in two years.

College is a big flippin joke if you ask me. Everyone only cares about the degree and for most jobs in all honesty they don't care about what the degree is for. Currently I'm doing 2 years at Owens and then a year a 4 year school to get my bachelors in Criminal Justice. Sad thing is I don't give a shit about criminal justice really, I'll just be able to fast track a career thru my current employer UPS with that degree and years of experience there. I'll have only 15k of college debt tops and probably be making 50k+ by the time I'm in my mid 20s. That's what most kids don't realize about college, yeah the education is important but a job or internship is what gets you places

Classyposter58;791075 wrote:College is a big flippin joke if you ask me. Everyone only cares about the degree and for most jobs in all honesty they don't care about what the degree is for. Currently I'm doing 2 years at Owens and then a year a 4 year school to get my bachelors in Criminal Justice. Sad thing is I don't give a shit about criminal justice really, I'll just be able to fast track a career thru my current employer UPS with that degree and years of experience there. I'll have only 15k of college debt tops and probably be making 50k+ by the time I'm in my mid 20s. That's what most kids don't realize about college, yeah the education is important but a job or internship is what gets you places

Yes and no. Degrees open up doors, an education makes you who you are to a large extent. If nothing else, the degree (and equally important, where you got it) helps you move up the latter more quickly.

Now there an infinite amount of ways to make money, going the college route and getting a masters only makes up a slice of that pie. I think we can all agree on that.

O-Trap;790533 wrote:


Actually, such "electives" were around long before money was an issue.

When has money never been an issue? Seriously wondering that.

^lol

hoops23;791086 wrote:When has money never been an issue? Seriously wondering that.

Dating back before the US was around, during the Renaissance, it was considered to be of great social status to be somewhat knowledgeable about virtually everything and yet a master of no one thing. As such, the best educations were for the purpose of giving a person a solid education on a wide variety of subjects which spanned the spectrum of anything potentially relevant to public life.

It's actually where the term "Renaissance man" comes from, when referring to someone who seems to know at least a little something about a lot of different topics.

Classyposter58;791075 wrote:College is a big flippin joke if you ask me. Everyone only cares about the degree and for most jobs in all honesty they don't care about what the degree is for. Currently I'm doing 2 years at Owens and then a year a 4 year school to get my bachelors in Criminal Justice. Sad thing is I don't give a shit about criminal justice really, I'll just be able to fast track a career thru my current employer UPS with that degree and years of experience there. I'll have only 15k of college debt tops and probably be making 50k+ by the time I'm in my mid 20s. That's what most kids don't realize about college, yeah the education is important but a job or internship is what gets you places

if you go to a decent college/university, they usually have pretty good internship and employment programs



on a different point, like otrap mentioned....Im going to graduate with a shit load of debt..around 50k. I'll have so much debt because, well according to the FAFSA my parents make enough not to get some help! Too bad the FAFSA doesnt know my parents arent helping me out for college, both households (parents are divorced) make around 6-digits a year, one above and one just below. Do I think they could help me out if they really wanted too? Yes. But a combination of poor spending habits (moms house: both parents have an ipod touch, personal laptop, ipad, and one desktop between the two. Not to mention the newest and best cellphone every year, and a new vehicle every few years) and multiple step-siblings that are younger than me are much more spoiled than I ever was for some reason.

But I think OTrap (i think) made a good point. If I wasnt paying for my college, I dont know how serious I would take it. I probably would be out drinking and smoking up every night. Since I am though, I take my education more seriously and look at every way possible to save costs, which I know will help me later in life. Freshman year-went to community college for basically free. Sophomore year- transferred, accumulated most cost this year due to getting stuck in the most expensive dorm and most convenient meal plan for me, which was also the most expensive. Junior year- I'll be getting an apartment with no meal plan and will be paying with the money I have saved up from working this summer.

If I didn't have my college paid for I'd have gone the ROTC route or simply given the Army four years for the GI Bill.

I'll be about $180,000 in debt when I graduate.

But I'll also have a Doctor of Pharmacy and an MBA or MPH at the age of 23.

It's worth it to me.

GOONx19;792294 wrote:I'll be about $180,000 in debt when I graduate.

But I'll also have a Doctor of Pharmacy and an MBA or MPH at the age of 23.

It's worth it to me.

Speaking as someone who graduated with similar levels, that's an awful lot of debt, and it can really affect your QOL.

Over 10 years @ 6.8%, you're looking at $2,071/mo. Amortized over 30 years @ 6.8%, you're looking at $1,173/mo. In other words, after taxes, you're looking at subtracting ~$35,000 from your salary for the next 10 years just to pay off your debt.

fan_from_texas;790158 wrote:Getting a worthless degree (e.g., [insert] studies, anything involving race or gender, or something made up) at a bad school with mediocre grades is a bad idea.

Getting a useful degree (engineering, accounting, etc.) at a good school with good grades is still an extraordinary investment.

Exactly what I was going to say.

^^
I would agree that you have to consider economics - while spending $120K for a degree in, say, Russian Literature is admirable, you had better not think that it's ever likely to pay for itself.

I went back to college in my late thirties for a second degree (Actuarial Science) - had to take only twelve courses (plus an audit to get back up to speed on calculus), and I paid undergrad rates for them. I would have liked to have gotten the MBA, but the cost would have been four times as much, taken another 12 classes, and would not have made much of a difference in my earning potential. Add to the fact that I had to work and raise a family at the same time - while the MBA would have been nice, it just was not worth the work and effort. Education --is-- broadening, but the desire to eat regularly is more urgent.

The second degree, from an economic standpoint, was a great investment, as let me double an already decent salary in less than two years. Bear in mind I already worked for a company that always had a need for that skill set, so it was not that much of a gamble.

I Wear Pants;790444 wrote:This seems like sort of a dumb criteria. I mean, the average student changes majors more than twice so I don't see how it can be a massive hit. Plus how long you take in school is a really arbitrary thing that depends on what was going on in your life as well as what school you went to (schools anymore tend to dick you around the last semester or two by having classes you are required to take that fill up very quickly only offered every other semester. So if for some reason you gut shut out of it you're stuck there for at least another semester).

I'm going to assume though that you look at it on a case by case basis though (IE: Dude that took six years to get his degree but has good grades, took difficult course work, and was involved in student groups like SIFE, etc wouldn't be docked for the extra time he took because there could be any number of reasons that it took longer that aren't "messing around".

Edit: And this is why you make sure you clean out/put very good privacy settings on your Facebook and Twitter accounts before applying for real jobs.

Having been involved in the interview process on the hiring side, I know exactly why they "weed out" those that take 5+ years unless there is a good reason.

1. Especially in this economy, you get overloaded with resumes. If you have 5 job openings you might get 200 resumes. You have to quickly weed out some based on certain criteria without spending the time for even a phone interview.
2. I'm sorry, but he is correct, finishing a degree in the "normal" time of 4 years (5 years with a co-op/internship) is evidence that the young person is good at organization, planning, etc to make sure they schedule those "once a year" classes when they have to in order to graduate on time. Shoot, I did 2 bachelor degrees, with a co-op, in 5 years when with engineering and co-op alone it is a 5 year program.
3. The only great reason I ever saw for taking 6+ years to graduate is one resume I saw for an engineer once who put college on hold to join the military after 9/11. He ended up getting the job (not my final decision, but he was my pick at the time).

Some young people do not realize how often a potential employer will check out their Facebook/Twitter page. Set your information to private and/or be respectable on your accounts.

GOONx19;792294 wrote:I'll be about $180,000 in debt when I graduate.

That's insane. Should get a job then get your employer to pay for your grad school.

fan_from_texas;792314 wrote:Speaking as someone who graduated with similar levels, that's an awful lot of debt, and it can really affect your QOL.

Over 10 years @ 6.8%, you're looking at $2,071/mo. Amortized over 30 years @ 6.8%, you're looking at $1,173/mo. In other words, after taxes, you're looking at subtracting ~$35,000 from your salary for the next 10 years just to pay off your debt.

I hear ya, my debt for 2 BS degrees (chemical engineering, applied math) and a MS (chemical engineering) is around $100k, I am forking out nearly $700/month over 30 years. That's a 2nd mortgage in my area.

jmog;792326 wrote:Having been involved in the interview process on the hiring side, I know exactly why they "weed out" those that take 5+ years unless there is a good reason.

Just curious, how can you tell someone took more than 5 years to graduate? Are we talking about people fresh out of college?

jmog;792326 wrote:Having been involved in the interview process on the hiring side, I know exactly why they "weed out" those that take 5+ years unless there is a good reason.

1. Especially in this economy, you get overloaded with resumes. If you have 5 job openings you might get 200 resumes. You have to quickly weed out some based on certain criteria without spending the time for even a phone interview.
2. I'm sorry, but he is correct, finishing a degree in the "normal" time of 4 years (5 years with a co-op/internship) is evidence that the young person is good at organization, planning, etc to make sure they schedule those "once a year" classes when they have to in order to graduate on time. Shoot, I did 2 bachelor degrees, with a co-op, in 5 years when with engineering and co-op alone it is a 5 year program.
3. The only great reason I ever saw for taking 6+ years to graduate is one resume I saw for an engineer once who put college on hold to join the military after 9/11. He ended up getting the job (not my final decision, but he was my pick at the time).

Some young people do not realize how often a potential employer will check out their Facebook/Twitter page. Set your information to private and/or be respectable on your accounts.

Without knowing what field your organization is in, what type of things stick out positively on a resume? Would an MBA look good, or any other grad school work?

Out of the 200 resumes that are sent in, how many of these people do you contact for an initial interview?

Commander of Awesome;792327 wrote:That's insane. Should get a job then get your employer to pay for your grad school.

I agree. Pretty legit he is getting an MBA and Doctorates at 23 years old, but man 180k...

One thing NO ONE has added in ANY of the discussion (at least in what I've read)...the connections that college brings you.

I went my first year to college free. Then I HAD to get out of there because it was an awful school, completely worthless to me. It does good to some people because it's cheap and you can stay with your parents and commute.

I ended up going to a school that is fairly expensive, and now I have the debt to account for that transfer. It was worth EVERY penny. I know several people at the school that can say the same thing as me (only without the transfer). I completed my first Master's degree and am on my way to a second.

College is a good thing. As far as I am concerned, ANY education (this is directed at higher education, secondary education, and primary education) is a good education. Go to the places that are hurting around the country...odds are their educational system(s) are terrible! That is the case with my hometown/county. Poor public school system, low percentage of population with any college experience let alone a degree. The community (communities) are in shambles...likely to be a ghost town within 10 years unless something drastic happens.

College is a way to meet people. It's a way to continue your social and business networks. Especially the liberal arts setting (whoever said it is worthless is FLAT wrong). A liberal arts education is very valuable and helps in well-roundedness. It's not for everyone (just like college, in general). Meeting people, making relationships, and continuing those relationships post-college lead people to success. These relationships can be from professor-to-student, student-to-student, etc. I have seen them work tremendously. They don't work if one does not do anything while partaking in the college experience.

The ticket price for college is high. But it's also high if you don't have the grades. And the high price tag can be reduced greatly by other measures being taken. There are many scholarships, grants, etc. to help with costs. The ways to reduce the price tag for the consumer are out there, but it's up to the consumer to do that work. It'd also be nice if most secondary schools had guidance counselors that helped too...but that's not always the case.

It is so important to do internships/jobs while in college that prepare one for their future career. That's where most college students go wrong (like myself). Employers look for experience and education. You can get the experience while getting an education (in many places). Now, don't get me wrong, there are still a lot of things that higher education fails in...like preparing people post-college (if they don't have a job, but mainly in paying mortgages, taxes, bills, etc.). I would like to see more "life lesson" courses in the education setting, both secondary and higher education. EVERY person in America could benefit from a budgeting course, parenting, etc.

More to come later...maybe.

like_that;792366 wrote:Without knowing what field your organization is in, what type of things stick out positively on a resume? Would an MBA look good, or any other grad school work?

Out of the 200 resumes that are sent in, how many of these people do you contact for an initial interview?

In my field (law), we pre-screen on the basis of school rank and class rank. If you go to a school outside the 15-20 from which we recruit, we don't hire you, period. At each school, we have a minimum class rank cutoff (so at Harvard, we may take 50%, while at Duke, we may take top 25%, etc.). If you don't attend one of the law schools where we recruit or your class rank is below our cut-off, we don't hire you. (Note that these criteria aren't just for straight-from-law-school hires; we apply the same to lateral hires who have been working for a few years. There was a big debate last year over whether to bring on an associate who, 6 years ago, was at the top of his class + law review at a lower-ranked tier 1 school. Grades and school matter.).

We do initial screening interviews (20 mins each), then invite some percentage (I would guess 20% or so) back to our offices for callbacks, where they go through 6, 30-minute interviews. We extend offers to about half of those people to join our summer internship program. After that program, which is basically a 10-week interview, we extend full time employment offers to 75-90%, depending on the year.

When we're weeding through stacks of resumes, literally the only things that matter in making the first cut are school rank and class rank. It doesn't matter if you're the #1 student at Ohio Northern (or Dayton, or Toledo, or wherever else), we don't hire from ONU, so you're out. Beyond that point, it's mostly personality and fit that we consider.

i cant and probably will never understand why people put so much weight into class rank and GPA and other metrics of that sort when determining the quality of a candidate. I almost feel like school rank falls into that same breath (not so much for law though). Just like anything else, the schooling system can be cheated and i personally can show you examples of 3.8 GPA students, from a respected school, who cannot perform basic mathematical functions or construct a well thought out sentence.

im young, but ive been part of a few hiring processes and feel like length of time to complete the degree, combined with what fills a resume and how well those things are articulated go a long way into giving an accurate snap shot of the quality of a candidate.

to get back on topic - the more and more i think about it, relationship building and connection making aside, the educational aspect of college seems pointless, outdated, and obsolete...