dwccrew;722239 wrote:So you knowlingly killed civilians and then posed with them or did you kill an enemy combatant and then pose? There is quite a difference between the 2 situations.

Well since I was pushed through Fallujah I guess I did a little bit of both.

CenterBHSFan;722142 wrote:Oh, here's a pic of my wife/husband. There's out 4 yr. old daughter, Aunt Martha at her son's wedding, my 9 yr. old son, oh and here's a special pic of my fellow soldiers one fine day when we killed some civilians and then took pictures of it. I look at this pic from time to time to remember the good ole days"

Well put, center. I don't think there's any defense for this kind of action. Dishonorable discharge, followed by war crimes trial. If this had been enemy soldiers doing this to U.S. civilians we would ask for no less.

Tiger2003;722306 wrote:Well since I was pushed through Fallujah I guess I did a little bit of both.

So you killed people who you knew were unarmed civilians that didn't pose a threat to you and then posed for pictures with their bodies?

Collateral damage and accidental killings are very unfortunate and things that should attempt to be minimized however in war those do happen. What should never happen is the purposeful killing of innocent civilians by people representing the United States of America. That is absolutely unacceptable.

I clicked on both links and can't see any pictures.

Every job has employees who break the rules.

THE4RINGZ;722348 wrote:Every job has employees who break the rules.

And those employees deserve to be punished by their companies for breaking the rules and if they broke laws they need to be punished by the courts/society.

This isn't a "we think soldiers are all bad people" thing it's a "these particular soldiers committed terrible acts and deserve to be punished accordingly" thing.

bigK, try this link:

*NSFW* Photos Emerge of U.S. Soldiers Allegedly Posing With Dead Afghan Civilians

The one guy is posing with a big ole smile.

Thanks.

That site might rival ours...bum bum bum

Yah I did. But they were warned get out or be killed.

I Wear Pants;722387 wrote:And those employees deserve to be punished by their companies for breaking the rules and if they broke laws they need to be punished by the courts/society.

This isn't a "we think soldiers are all bad people" thing it's a "these particular soldiers committed terrible acts and deserve to be punished accordingly" thing.

Yeah maybe I over simplified my point for brevity. You expounded the point I was trying to make.

I guess my problem with what most of you people are saying is that if you kill a innocent person in combat you are a murderer. Yes these guys did stage the mission so they should be charged but to call them evil people I would not go that far. Shit happens over there and you come home a completely different person. While you're their you do things you're not proud of later in life but at the time of it you sometimes can't control it. I guess my shit is different but I will not look down on these men. I'm upset that they staged the mission but I am not upset they posed. Innocent people die all the fucking time in war. But if your going to judge these people then I guess it's your time to step up and sign the fucking papers.

Tiger2003;722453 wrote:I guess my problem with what most of you people are saying is that if you kill a innocent person in combat you are a murderer. Yes these guys did stage the mission so they should be charged but to call them evil people I would not go that far. Shit happens over there and you come home a completely different person. While you're their you do things you're not proud of later in life but at the time of it you sometimes can't control it. I guess my shit is different but I will not look down on these men. I'm upset that they staged the mission but I am not upset they posed. Innocent people die all the fucking time in war. But if your going to judge these people then I guess it's your time to step up and sign the fucking papers.

I guess I can judge since I did sign the papers and served in Iraq in '07. And I say these guys are a disgrace. There is a difference between what you explained was your situation and what these guys did. They killed unarmed civilians and then posed with the bodies. What kind of sick fuck does that? There is no excuse in my mind. War does change a person, but most people do not knowingly kill unarmed civilians and then pose with the bodies.

How stupid could they possibly be? If not for the actions, how did they not expect this to be leaked out to the public and not believe they would get in trouble? It is confirmation of their intelligence level.

CenterBHSFan;722119 wrote:I can't ever speak like I've been in those soldiers shoes, Belly, but I can't imagine that you're (any soldier) so friggen zoned out in killing mode that you break out the camera so that you can keep your little Kodak moment forever.

And while I agree with alot of your points or not (I have), the people who did that don't deserve the title of "American Soldier". They need to be dishonorably discharged. Look, I understand and accept that civilians are killed in war. I don't like it, but I understand the necessity. That's one thing. It's a whole other thing to decide to kill civilians and then take pictures of your mess like it's some kind of prize.

CenterBHSFan;722133 wrote:You don't think there's anything wrong with purposely killing civilians and then having pictures taken of it like you're on holiday?
What? You put those in your wallet so you can show them like pics of your family or what? So you can take it out at night and reminisce? Put them on facebook? Joke around with your comrads about that time you picked off civilians for sport?

I'm sorry but there's something wrong with people in their brains who think like that and do those sorts of things.

Tiger2003;722453 wrote:I guess my problem with what most of you people are saying is that if you kill a innocent person in combat you are a murderer. Yes these guys did stage the mission so they should be charged but to call them evil people I would not go that far. Shit happens over there and you come home a completely different person. While you're their you do things you're not proud of later in life but at the time of it you sometimes can't control it. I guess my shit is different but I will not look down on these men. I'm upset that they staged the mission but I am not upset they posed. Innocent people die all the fucking time in war. But if your going to judge these people then I guess it's your time to step up and sign the fucking papers.

I really think you're over-exaggerating what you've read, and I mean that in a sort of kneejerk reaction way. Which majority of people said that if a civilian gets killed in combat that a soldier is a murderer? I know in my posts I specifically never said anything like that. Not even in the same atmosphere.

Tiger2003;722453 wrote:I guess my problem with what most of you people are saying is that if you kill a innocent person in combat you are a murderer.

I don't think anyone has actually said that every time an innocent civilian is killed it is murder. In the situation of these soldiers however, it would appear that it was murder because it was malicious and there was intent. In the case you described yourself being in, malice didn't seem to play a factor. Big difference, IMO, between civilians getting killed (being caught in crossfire or as collateral damage) and knowingly killing unarmed civilians.

I just read the articles and looked for addition articles for verification. Seems the plea deal is to protect one ass and the 24 years he Ok with, as long as he can throw others under the bus. If what been documented as truthful and real … and planned scenario then this soldier and others needs to be punished. I will wait for the others to testify to see what others where involved and how much and how the story situation plays out.
The two that have testified and admitted the killing of known civilians, planned and cover-up are not the America Soldiers that we as Americans know and should love and honor forever.

If these where civilian that happen within in the line of fire and or in the wrong place at the wrong time in a fire fight collateral damage, it happens. Who would know if it was the enemy or not… so be it. Collateral damage wrong but unavoidable at times, don’t blame the American Soldier. Enemies don’t always carry guns and do run from soldiers or are used as decoys/protection so situation like this can and do happen.

I still stand behind the soldiers until proven different. This one soldier (I understand another has also testified guilty) if what is truthful as stated, planned and covered up as their plea bargain testimony indicates than rightful punishment is required.

Note: This squad and these men and women had issue, inconsistencies and tendencies that someone needed to observer and or evaluation before it got to this level.
The leadership of this squad and those in command should have been aware of this situation. This need to be addressed in the investigation.

I’m sure that this squad and other members of this squad are good Americans but war and environments like this can change people norms. This is not an excuse just a factor of war. Deployment, mission and long field time takes its toll.

I will still stand that I would want this squad if I was their leader … I believe in my skill as an example of professional soldier and the honor of the uniform and American soldier.

As for the photos and posing with the dead (enemies)… does happen and is a factor that does take place. Why? IMO…I have stated before killing come easy and the dealing with death is easier part of the new norm standard in combat area. I have see all aspect of society in many differnet squads do this... I would even venture to say that some of you if in a combat grunt unit would also.

I have witness this behavior and even seen soldier in fire fight trying to record with cassette tape strapped to the heads, taking photos and removing fingers. I have also (sadly) participated in things like this …see avatar. “Death Card”.
My squad respected the other fallen enemy soldiers. Photos where taken, posing was done but the dismembering was not a practice in my squad. We placed the ‘Death Card” on our kills… War is not a easy place to be, lives are changed and lost…

Tiger2003;722453 wrote:I guess my problem with what most of you people are saying is that if you kill a innocent person in combat you are a murderer. Yes these guys did stage the mission so they should be charged but to call them evil people I would not go that far. Shit happens over there and you come home a completely different person. While you're their you do things you're not proud of later in life but at the time of it you sometimes can't control it. I guess my shit is different but I will not look down on these men. I'm upset that they staged the mission but I am not upset they posed. Innocent people die all the fucking time in war. But if your going to judge these people then I guess it's your time to step up and sign the fucking papers.

That's such a cheap argument and you know it. The idea that someone who isn't a soldier isn't allowed to say "knowingly and purposefully killing unarmed civilians who you knew did not pose a threat is murder" is insane. That's pretty much a textbook definition of murder. Simply because it's a soldier in a war zone doesn't give them carte blanc to do what they want.

I Wear Pants;722698 wrote:That's such a cheap argument and you know it. The idea that someone who isn't a soldier isn't allowed to say "knowingly and purposefully killing unarmed civilians who you knew did not pose a threat is murder" is insane. That's pretty much a textbook definition of murder. Simply because it's a soldier in a war zone doesn't give them carte blanc to do what they want.

I know I killed civilians but I am not a murderer! In a war zone shit happens that you will have to live with the rest of our lives. But we also had a different ROE. If you were in a city you were treated as a hostile it didn't matter if you were 10 or 40.

Civilian deaths in wartime are expected. What isn't expected are photos of soldiers posing with the dead civilians as if they were trophies. Sorry, but you'll get no sympathy or understanding from me on this issue.

I have much respect for Belly and Tiger....I think they are arguing against something that they aren't being accused of though.

If you knowingly staged civilians to look like the enemy so you could kill them and pose with them - you are a murderer and should be treated as such.

If you knowingly killed civilians under your ROE in a war zone. I'm sure you will feel some guilt but under the circumstances you were just doing your job.

I Wear Pants;722698 wrote:That's such a cheap argument and you know it. The idea that someone who isn't a soldier isn't allowed to say "knowingly and purposefully killing unarmed civilians who you knew did not pose a threat is murder" is insane. That's pretty much a textbook definition of murder. Simply because it's a soldier in a war zone doesn't give them carte blanc to do what they want.

It does if they are a US hired contractor

bases_loaded;722777 wrote:I have much respect for Belly and Tiger....I think they are arguing against something that they aren't being accused of though.

This x bazillionty.

They need to take a deep breath and reread what everyone has posted before a blood vessel explodes or something.

CenterBHSFan;722836 wrote:This x bazillionty.

They need to take a deep breath and reread what everyone has posted before a blood vessel explodes or something.

I think I need a Donut Dollie

Belly35;722873 wrote:I think I need a Donut Dollie

I bought donuts from the bakery this morning, you're in luck! lol

Tiger2003;722747 wrote:I know I killed civilians but I am not a murderer! In a war zone shit happens that you will have to live with the rest of our lives. But we also had a different ROE. If you were in a city you were treated as a hostile it didn't matter if you were 10 or 40.

Did you knowingly kill civilians that you weren't supposed to who you knew did not pose a threat to you? Because that's what these guys did. And then they were all smiley about it.

Wow, this is all a lot to take in..honestly..most of my family has been in the military, I am a father, husband, and American in that order. I guess the thing that I have to keep in mind to support my troops is that most of them are just like me, but in a different order..1) American 2) Father 3) Husband. Just guessing on their last 2, but we know if they are somewhere fighting for US, or U.S. either way, that we will be safe and can sleep at night. I can't say what I would or wouldn't do in the time of war, because I have never been there..THANK YOU TO THOSE WHO HAVE!