Archive Catholicism question

O-Trap

Posts: 14,994

Mar 16, 2011 11:35am

Con_Alma;714003 wrote:...one attorney who was also considered a theologian and alcoholic in particular.

And regularly battled "demons" in his bedroom (I personally think it was the booze).

C

Con_Alma

Posts: 12,198

Mar 16, 2011 11:37am

O-Trap;714006 wrote:And regularly battled "demons" in his bedroom (I personally think it was the booze).

Those crazy Germans!

OSH

Posts: 4,145

Mar 16, 2011 11:42am

krambman;713955 wrote:Why? For 1500 years the Catholic church was the only Christian church, and Protestant denominations were largely founded (at first) by people who had been excommunicated for preaching what at the time was deemed to be heresy. Besides, basically every major world religion claims exclusivity on salvation.

jmog;713994 wrote:Come on as a Baptist minister you should know that this isn't true of a lot of Protestant churches. Many Protestant denominations believe you are saved by accepting Christ's sacrifice for you sins and confessing them.

That has nothing to do with which denomination you happen to attend.

I attend a Baptist church and I can tell you that while Baptists believe their beliefs are the closest to what the Bible actually says, we do not preach that you have to be a Baptist to be saved.

jmog:
To be precise, krambman specifically said, "every major world religion claims exclusivity on salvation." This isn't about denominations within Protestantism. It's about all the major religions in the world -- Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, etc.

krambman

Posts: 3,606

Mar 16, 2011 4:17pm

OSH;714012 wrote:jmog:
To be precise, krambman specifically said, "every major world religion claims exclusivity on salvation." This isn't about denominations within Protestantism. It's about all the major religions in the world -- Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, etc.

Exactly. I wasn't saying that every denomination claims exclusivity, but that nearly all major religions do. Some denominations do claim exclusivity, but the vast majority of Protestantism does claim that all Christians, be they Protestants, Catholics, or Orthodox, are saved if they believe in Christ.

M

mrtinkertrain

Posts: 76

Mar 17, 2011 6:57pm

Nothing says crock of shit quite like the catholic church.

ZWICK 4 PREZ

Posts: 7,733

Mar 18, 2011 6:53am

Here's the biggest problem........

She was married before right after college for a year. Her ex cheated on her and abused her. On the last night she was with him he grabbed a knife and put it to her throat and said he'd kill her then himself if she ever left him.

Since she's divorced, the Catholic church says she needs an annulment. To recieve an annulment, the church has to contact her ex and his witnesses. She's very scared for her safety for this. She doesn't want to provoke him at all. Her ex's brother is in prison for trying to kill his ex wife and she thinks he would try the same thing if motivated. Without an annulment though, the church still sees her as married and it would be adultry if she marries again without the annulment.
Her safety is more of a concern to me than appeasing the Pope.

THE4RINGZ

Posts: 16,816

Mar 18, 2011 8:14am

Tue annullmemt process isn't easy, especially given these circumstances. I understand the desire to be married in the Catholic Church, but I would sincerely ask why? If you do get married in The Church are you planning on living as devout Catholics? Are you prepared to practice Natural Family Planning? Will you raise your kids as Catholics? Sending them to Catholic schools?

I am asking legitimate questions that you will face during the process and hopefully the answers will help you answer the bigger questions.

ZWICK 4 PREZ

Posts: 7,733

Mar 18, 2011 8:21am

THE4RINGZ;716244 wrote:Tue annullmemt process isn't easy, especially given these circumstances. I understand the desire to be married in the Catholic Church, but I would sincerely ask why? If you do get married in The Church are you planning on living as devout Catholics? Are you prepared to practice Natural Family Planning? Will you raise your kids as Catholics? Sending them to Catholic schools?

I am asking legitimate questions that you will face during the process and hopefully the answers will help you answer the bigger questions.

I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic schools.. go to Mass still at the same church I went to as a kid. We decided if we got married that she wanted to convert and raise our kids Catholic. So we started that process and hit this road block due to her past. In most cases it wouldsn't be an issue to have to contact an ex but it is with her. And I'm not putting her safety in jeopardy for it.....

but.... I also know now that if I marry her civilly or in another church, the Catholic church will see me as an adulterer since she didnt get an annulment. And we couldnt raise our kids Catholic b/c we didn't get married in a Catholic church.

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Mar 18, 2011 8:22am

ZWICK 4 PREZ;716245 wrote:I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic schools.. go to Mass still at the same church I went to as a kid. We decided if we got married that she wanted to convert and raise our kids Catholic. So we started that process and hit this road block due to her past. In most cases it wouldsn't be an issue to have to contact an ex but it is with her. And I'm not putting her safety in jeopardy for it.

Then you have to decide which is more important, getting married or being a "proper" Catholic.

ZWICK 4 PREZ

Posts: 7,733

Mar 18, 2011 8:25am

LJ;716248 wrote:Then you have to decide which is more important, getting married or being a "proper" Catholic.

Obviously. Struggling with your faith isn't an easy issue though.

krambman

Posts: 3,606

Mar 18, 2011 8:40am

ZWICK 4 PREZ;716249 wrote:Obviously. Struggling with your faith isn't an easy issue though.

You need to talk to your priest and explain the safety concerns about contacting her ex for the annulment. He'll probably need to speak with his bishop and see if there are any exceptions where the church could still grant the annulment (especially since he cheated and was abusive). I will say though, that not being Catholic, the fact that they require your marriage to happen within the Church in order for it to be legitimate, but also require her previous marriage to be annulled (even though it wasn't performed in the Church seems inconsistent.

ZWICK 4 PREZ

Posts: 7,733

Mar 18, 2011 8:45am

krambman;716257 wrote:You need to talk to your priest and explain the safety concerns about contacting her ex for the annulment. He'll probably need to speak with his bishop and see if there are any exceptions where the church could still grant the annulment (especially since he cheated and was abusive). I will say though, that not being Catholic, the fact that they require your marriage to happen within the Church in order for it to be legitimate, but also require her previous marriage to be annulled (even though it wasn't performed in the Church seems inconsistent.

Since she was married before God in another church, She is still married to him according to God. That's why the annulment is needed.

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Mar 18, 2011 8:48am

ZWICK 4 PREZ;716260 wrote:Since she was married before God in another church, She is still married to him according to God. That's why the annulment is needed.

that is one thing that bothers me about organized religion. God already knows, He doesn't need man to tell him.

ZWICK 4 PREZ

Posts: 7,733

Mar 18, 2011 8:51am

LJ;716261 wrote:that is one thing that bothers me about organized religion. God already knows, He doesn't need man to tell him.

Well that's what I'm struggling with. My priest tells me her marriage was invalid b/c of the sexual immorality. So obviously God knows its invalid for the sexual immorality. So if I cant proceed with the process b/c of her safety is an issue, yet you know the marriage is invalid and needs annulled, why is it even an issue?

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Mar 18, 2011 8:53am

Stuff like this is why while ridiculous, the Peter the Rabbit episode of South Park makes so much sense....

Hippitous Hoppitous

Skyhook79

Posts: 5,739

Mar 18, 2011 9:15am

ZWICK 4 PREZ;716260 wrote:Since she was married before God in another church, She is still married to him according to God. That's why the annulment is needed.

http://www.oldpaths.com/archive/davison/roy/allen/1940/divorce.html

ZWICK 4 PREZ

Posts: 7,733

Mar 18, 2011 9:32am

Skyhook79;716276 wrote:http://www.oldpaths.com/archive/davison/roy/allen/1940/divorce.html

Yes I know. You're not telling me anything I don't know. The church feels sexual immorality nullifys a wedding though.

THE4RINGZ

Posts: 16,816

Mar 18, 2011 10:43am

If you are really committed to this, then you should have faith that it will all work out. She can't become Catholic for another year, the annulment will probably take as long so look at this as a journey of building your faith. Not unlike the journey she will be taking while attending RCIA classes.

I mean you are trusting in God above all else to guide your life, so let him.

I am not trying to be a dick here.

FatHobbit

Posts: 8,651

Mar 18, 2011 10:47am

This is not a typical Zwick thread.

Dr Winston O'Boogie

Posts: 1,799

Mar 18, 2011 11:37am

According to Kirk Cameron, you'll be going to hell. So it really doesn't matter where you're married.

Do you honestly think God cares where you have your wedding? If the Church is showing it doesn't want you, then to hell with them. I was born and raised Catholic, 12 years of Catholic school etc. I also got married in a Catholic church. Had I to do that over again, I wouldn't have as they made my wife not only jump through all sorts of hoops, but made her feel like her previous life was that of a heathen.

I frankly doubt God cares about rules between denominations. My bigger concern is how you explain the great differences between what people on earth consider God. Can you tell someone growing up in India that Vishnu is a joke? That's what they may think of Christ.

O-Trap

Posts: 14,994

Mar 18, 2011 11:38am

Dr Winston O'Boogie;716432 wrote:According to Kirk Cameron, you'll be going to hell.

lold!

Scarlet_Buckeye

Posts: 5,264

Mar 18, 2011 11:43am

My dad was Catholic and my mom was not (they did not marry in a Catholic Church), however, I was raised and went through all Catholic schools and had 100% Catholic sacraments - I am Catholic. My mom did later convert (after I was away at college) but just because my dad was Catholic and my mom was not when I was growing up didn't prohibit me from becoming Catholic. So I don't get your comments when you said you couldn't raise your kids Catholic if you are not married in a Catholic church.

ADDENDUM: Correct, neither of my parents were married prior.

ZWICK 4 PREZ

Posts: 7,733

Mar 18, 2011 11:56am

Scarlet_Buckeye;716443 wrote:My dad was Catholic and my mom was not (they did not marry in a Catholic Church), however, I was raised and went through all Catholic schools and had 100% Catholic sacraments - I am Catholic. My mom did later convert (after I was away at college) but just because my dad was Catholic and my mom was not when I was growing up didn't prohibit me from becoming Catholic. So I don't get your comments when you said you couldn't raise your kids Catholic if you are not married in a Catholic church.

Your mom probably wasn't previously married and therefore your dad was not considered an adulturer. That would be the big difference.

krambman

Posts: 3,606

Mar 18, 2011 12:03pm

ZWICK 4 PREZ;716456 wrote:Your mom probably wasn't previously married and therefore your dad was not considered an adulturer. That would be the big difference.

Why would your status with the church matter for your children? Faith is a personal decision, not a parent's choice. If you want to send your children to church at a Catholic church and they choose to go through catechism and be confirmed, what matter is your personal standing with God?

OSH

Posts: 4,145

Mar 18, 2011 1:48pm

I just don't understand why you still consider the Catholic church after all of this?

It's an easy decision for me. Stop going to the Catholic church. Choose a different church, or start thinking about a homechurch.