This I agree with ccrunner.

ccrunner609;698067 wrote:if you were in an educational setting daily and talking with OEA attorney's and other very intelligent educational leaders you would be informed that the application of merit is going to be based on student performance.......how else would you guage student performance?

Man you sound like you dont know anything.

Why doesn't the teachers union propose metrics for evaluating teacher performance?

Someone sounds a little angry.

ccrunner609;698076 wrote:First off, its not their job. Unions dont hire people and dont sign their paychecks.

Ok, so instead of being part of the solution you want to be the problem. I get it.

If you never say what you want the metrics for evaluating performance to be then you don't get to bitch when you don't like them.

Ty Webb;698025 wrote:basesloaded......

You do realize that a majority of people support collective bargaining for public employees right?

But do those same people support mandatory participation of all public employees in collective bargaining ? I support the right of individuals to join together and collectively bargain. I do not support mandatory payment of union dues as a condition of employment. I support the right of the individual to bargain with his employer individually or join with others.

Ty Webb;698045 wrote:But they took away their RIGHT to strike if they feel need be

You all like to run your mouths about having rights taken away from the federal government, but yet you support a bill that does the exact thing you like to say president Obama does

That is NOT a right -- it was a privilege accorded by legislation -- just like this legislation -- passed when Celeste was governor. And it was a huge mistake. Not one single RIGHT was taken away by this bill. Not one. Just because you CALL something a right, doesn't mean it ever was one.

ptown_trojans_1;698058 wrote:ok, what do school districts do now?
What do other government agencies do now?
Also, what is the timeframe for implementation?

ptown,

I don't think anyone thought about that. Until now it was all about the public employees and their cushy salaries and fabulous free benefits. The rabble have been roused and they got what they wanted. Like I said earlier, now that they've gotten put in their place who's next?

ccrunner609;698035 wrote:Schools are going to operate in a less efficiant manner....more testing and evaluations are going to cost kids quality class time. Teaching of tests to make sure they pass standardized tests and not giving them a good education.

You just described exactly what is happening now, so I fail to see how this will happen as a result of the passage of this bill. It is already happening!

Ty Webb;698045 wrote:But they took away their RIGHT to strike if they feel need be

You all like to run your mouths about having rights taken away from the federal government, but yet you support a bill that does the exact thing you like to say president Obama does

Please provide anywhere in the Constitution where there is a RIGHT to strike. The more you post, the more you make yourself look uninformed and ignorant. The smartest thing you could do is just stop posting.

ccrunner609;698060 wrote:Really? You know more then me? Are you a teacher? Have you ever been in a classroom? Have you ever had government leglislation crammed in your face and have to implement it?

Well let me tell you, I have. I speak from experience, the more the government sticks their nose into the classroom, the worse it is. The more the government mandates on the teacher and the school, the worse it ends up.

I am not going to pretend to tell you what you know and dont know....people that do that sound like morons.

Uhhh, almost every industry has to deal with government legislation being shoved in their face. Actually a lot more than teachers. In my line of work we have to deal with OSHA, the EPA, Homeland Security, city water department, etc. The list goes on and on; we must follow all of these regulations and legislation, I'm not bitching. Do the work and move the fuck on.

Why don't we let the military unionize? Don't they have a RIGHT to do it? Maybe we can give them the right to strike while we're at it. I mean if anyone has a right to gripe it is the military.

ccrunner609;697735 wrote:fair and equal....to what? Someone punching a timeclock at the local factory? Someone that works in the "private sector?"

When they have to get a masters degree and go to school and take more classes to renew their license then we can talk about fair and equal.

Im getting my MBA at OSU right now at night while working 50 hours a week (on my dime). Just an FYI.

derek bomar;698192 wrote:Im getting my MBA at OSU right now at night while working 50 hours a week (on my dime). Just an FYI.

Which is your choice.......until recently, a teacher was required to obtain a Master's degree as a stipulation to retain their license....which my wife did.....at our expense.

wkfan;698201 wrote:Which is your choice.......until recently, a teacher was required to obtain a Master's degree as a stipulation to retain their license....which my wife did.....at our expense.

The whole Master's thing...is that something the state mandated or was it part of some collective bargain agreement?

ccrunner609;698070 wrote:her eis what i am going to love.......the costs to the state and districts to evaluate teachers for merit.

Maybe I don't understand. Why do we need merit evaluation? They amended the bill so that you still collectively bargain on wages. So that hasn't changed.

Did I miss something?

bases_loaded;698207 wrote:The whole Master's thing...is that something the state mandated or was it part of some collective bargain agreement?

State mandated as it was a part of license renewal, etc.

bases_loaded;698207 wrote:The whole Master's thing...is that something the state mandated or was it part of some collective bargain agreement?

State mandated, and pay scales were made accordingly. State is mandating new licensure requirements and "steps," and I am sure you will see pay scales made accordingly to that as well.

The bottom line to all of this (in my eyes) and the most disheartening thing is this; the insensitivity from people is extremely overwhelming, and somewhat hypocritical.

There ARE teachers that agree with many portions of this bill. There ARE teachers that agree that poor teachers should be eliminated, and easier. There ARE teachers that are sick of big union dues and union rhetoric. There ARE teachers out there are sympathetic to many of the people in our own communities who have lost there jobs. Sympathy is the last thing we are receiving.

I understand (you need to read that again, and read it out loud... I UNDERSTAND) that the budget needs to be balanced, that education has flaws, etc. Something needs to be done. Hell, maybe this whole SB5 thing needs to be done... I don't know, I'm not an expert on budget balancing, etc.

The part that is overwhelmingly saddening is to see our own people lacking sympathy to the fact that we will be taking huge hits coming home in our paychecks. YES, it is how the market works. YES, when the money is not there, something needs to be done.

If ANY of you said that you could possibly lose $500/month of take home pay, I CANNOT begin to imagine coming on here and saying any of these things:

"It's about time!"
"Sucks to be you, but that's the free market!"
"Welcome to the real world!"
"Suck it up and live with it!"
"You've had it coming to you!"

Can you imagine, for one second, going to a factory that is closing down and saying those very same things to people losing their jobs? Regardless of SB5, teachers, unions, public workers, etc. Regardless of the people being affected by this, can you not just step outside of your angry attitude and form just the slightest bit of sympathy for employees (over the entire state, mind you) that will be taking huge hits. Can you treat us measly public workers as real human beings, breathing the same air as those factory workers?

I'm for a lot of the things in this bill, I truly am. Here is what scares me:

Insurance go from 10% to 20% - Extra $110 per month for me
Pension go from 10% to possible 28% - Extra $550-600 per month for me.

I could lose up to $700 per month of take home pay (worst case scenario), and many other employees around the state of Ohio could see similar cuts, some more, some less. Our families will struggle, that's an understatement. And you have the audacity to just say those things?

Again, I CANNOT even imagine, one bit, going to a closing business and saying those things. The realities of this bill are harsh enough. Why do we need our fellow citizens tearing us down even more? I am human too.

wkfan;698201 wrote:Which is your choice.......until recently, a teacher was required to obtain a Master's degree as a stipulation to retain their license....which my wife did.....at our expense.

And it's not a person's choice to become a teacher knowing the requirements to continue require furthering education?

Cry me a river ernest.

Hell someone already posted a "WANTED" poster with those who voted for it and there are facebook groups saying "NEVER FORGET"...really that makes me think of Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Comparing this to those is pretty insensitive. "burn in hell" is regards to those who voted for the bill.."hope they die"....

LJ;698246 wrote:And it's not a person's choice to become a teacher knowing the requirements to continue require furthering education?

It was not a requirement when my wife became a teacher...it was added along the way, so no, this was not a 'choice' that she made, it was made for her.

And, yes...it is Derek's choice...unless what he does has a requirement by law to have a graduate degree.

wkfan;698264 wrote:It was not a requirement when my wife became a teacher...it was added along the way, so no, this was not a 'choice' that she made, it was made for her.

And, yes...it is Derek's choice...unless what he does has a requirement by law to have a graduate degree.

And it's no less someone's choice to become or stay a teacher. That argument is such a false dichotomy it's not even funny.

bases_loaded;698254 wrote:Cry me a river ernest.

Hell someone already posted a "WANTED" poster with those who voted for it and there are facebook groups saying "NEVER FORGET"...really that makes me think of Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Comparing this to those is pretty insensitive. "burn in hell" is regards to those who voted for the bill.."hope they die"....

Did I say those things? Thank you for doing exactly as my post states.

Honestly, if you had a job, got laid off from it, what would your reaction be if I said, "Cry me a river! Get over it! It's how the market works!"

All I'm asking is for a little sympathy, regardless of what the bill does that is good.

Pension go from 10% to possible 28% - Extra $550-600 per month for me.

Is this optional?? Could you choose a percentage between 10% and 28%? Mandating 28% is pretty extreme.

Prescott;698283 wrote:Is this optional?? Could you choose a percentage between 10% and 28%? Mandating 28% is pretty extreme.

I dunno why they just don't do what the feds did in the mid-80's and all new employees are on a 401k retirement system and current employees can opt into that if they want.

People usually say that it sucks that they're laid off or take a pay cut though. They don't act like it's some great injustice because they understand the reality of the situation.

ernest_t_bass;698282 wrote:...
Honestly, if you had a job, got laid off from it, what would your reaction be if I said, "Cry me a river! Get over it! It's how the market works!"

All I'm asking is for a little sympathy, regardless of what the bill does that is good.

Why would sympathy from others be important to me if I got laid off from my job.

Others views or opinions of my personal situation has no bearing on my state of being at all currently. Can you help me understand why I should place importance on other's view of me being laid off?

Prescott;698283 wrote:Is this optional?? Could you choose a percentage between 10% and 28%? Mandating 28% is pretty extreme.

I've been discussing it with some people. I think there will be different options. They can't "mandate" it, but they can say, "If you want to be a part of STRS, you need to pay 28%. If you can't do that, here is your money."

I think that public workers may also have the option to pay into SS, but the BOE would have to pick up their 7.whatever% as well. It's all in its infant stages, so I am still very uncertain.